Who Ya Got: Marvin Lewis or Mike Zimmer?

[Essex Johnson]

(08-13-2016, 09:19 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: I think if Zimmer was given a full offseason, he would be more successful with this Bengals team than Marvin.  I think we know what results we are getting with Marvin.  He's had some great drafts, produced some great players, which has recently led to many playoff berths.  However, Bengals teams have had self-control issues that have plagued them throughout Lewis' years.  Zimmer, I believe would nip that in the bud.  

Beyond this year, I don't have an opinion on who'd be the better option.

Zimmer can not get a free pass while coaching the Bengals.. our defense imploded against the run during his playoff tenure as Def. Cor.

I think highly of him as a coach but he has to take blame also when he was here during playoffs.. his unit failed us in the playoffs especially against the run.

[wolfkaosaun]

(08-13-2016, 11:34 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Zimmer can not get a free pass while coaching the Bengals.. our defense imploded against the run during his playoff tenure as Def. Cor.

I think highly of him as a coach but he has to take blame also when he was here during playoffs.. his unit failed us in the playoffs especially against the run.

That was always something he struggled with, even as a DC elsewhere during the playoffs.

[kevin]

I voted Marvin Lewis because from 1991 to 2002 The Bengals were not just the worst team in the NFL but considered the worst franchise in all pro sports....The Vikings were not that bad for Zimmer......Coach Lewis still one of the first black head coaches, not the first,but one of the first. It was a great Branch Rickey move by Bengals because no top white head coach in his right mind wanted the Bengals job after 2002, this was the worst NFL franchise going.  Call it racism or whatever but there were good black assistant coaches more than ready to become head coaches. The Bengals dipped into that pool of coaches and it was a great move....Lewis did the impossible taking the worst NFL franchise and turning it around to 7 play-off seasons in 13 years which is over 50 % of the time in the play-offs that was going to the play-offs none of the time from 1991 to 2002 and known for their 4-12 seasons or worse. ......I remember how stinking awful the Bengals were and do not ever tell me those were good teams....Coach Lewis turning the worst team in the NFL into a team that has gone play-offs 7 out of his 13 seasons and 6 out of the last 7 is amazing.  I do not know how he turned this stinking franchise around. Few coaches could have. It has indeed been a Lombardi like effort bringing winning to the sad sack Bengals......To those who always want Coach Lewis fired, be careful what you wish for. Without Coach Lewis I see this Cincinnati franchise reverting back to their 1990's form of being the worst team in the NFL, and maybe pulling out of Cincinnati all together for some other city. 

[Shake n Blake]

I really don't get giving Marv extra credit because the Bengals were bad from 91-02. As if turning around that is somehow more impressive than turning around some other random garbage team. The Bengals were only bad that long thanks to Mike Brown's patience/loyalty to terrible coaches like Shula and Coslet. Ironically, that same patience/loyalty is why Marvin still has a job with a goose-egg-for-seven playoff record.

Mike Brown's loyalty to those bad coaches shouldn't somehow be turned into another feather in Marv's cap. The team Marv took over was no worse than most other teams that are 4-12 or worse. You don't obtain a record that bad without poor ownership (or a poor GM) and some glaring lack of experienced talent. Usually at QB. Fortunately for Marv, he inherited a good QB that wasn't part of the previous decade of losing. Despite the Bengals' prior results, Marv inherited a decent sitch with the #1 overall pick and some young talent. Not to mention a guy by the name of Duke Tobin, who selected that young talent and deserves more credit than he receives for turning around the franchise.

I feel like some people only look at the previous results and fail to (or refuse to) onjectively look at the players and situation that Marv walked into. In addition to everything I've already mentioned (#1 pick, young talent, Tobin, etc), Marvin also got a Mike Brown that was finally ready and willing to cede some control over the team.

In summary, while I give Marv credit for his part in the turnaround, I also feel it was a cumulation of many things that led us out of that era, and many of those things (and players/coaches/personnel guys) aren't acknowledged or properly credited because some are too busy heaping all the credit/praise on Marvin. I guess that's why someone like me is just fine with moving on, because I realize that others who played a role in our current success will still be around. Whereas the folks who give 100% credit to Marv are scared to death of him leaving because, after all, he's 100% the reason why we're winning.

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-14-2016, 08:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really don't get giving Marv extra credit because the Bengals were bad from 91-02. As if turning around that is somehow more impressive than turning around some other random garbage team. The Bengals were only bad that long thanks to Mike Brown's patience/loyalty to terrible coaches like Shula and Coslet. Ironically, that same patience/loyalty is why Marvin still has a job with a goose-egg-for-seven playoff record.

Mike Brown's loyalty to those bad coaches shouldn't somehow be turned into another feather in Marv's cap. The team Marv took over was no worse than most other teams that are 4-12 or worse. You don't obtain a record that bad without poor ownership (or a poor GM) and some glaring lack of experienced talent. Usually at QB. Fortunately for Marv, he inherited a good QB that wasn't part of the previous decade of losing. Despite the Bengals' prior results, Marv inherited a decent sitch with the #1 overall pick and some young talent. Not to mention a guy by the name of Duke Tobin, who selected that young talent and deserves more credit than he receives for turning around the franchise.

I feel like some people only look at the previous results and fail to (or refuse to) onjectively look at the players and situation that Marv walked into. In addition to everything I've already mentioned (#1 pick, young talent, Tobin, etc), Marvin also got a Mike Brown that was finally ready and willing to cede some control over the team.

In summary, while I give Marv credit for his part in the turnaround, I also feel it was a cumulation of many things that led us out of that era, and many of those things (and players/coaches/personnel guys) aren't acknowledged or properly credited because some are too busy heaping all the credit/praise on Marvin. I guess that's why someone like me is just fine with moving on, because I realize that others who played a role in our current success will still be around. Whereas the folks who give 100% credit to Marv are scared to death of him leaving because, after all, he's 100% the reason why we're winning.

Agree,

I voted Zimmer, to be honest I don't have a lot of faith that anything is going to change this season if we are good/lucky enough to make the playoffs again.

ML had a part in the turn around, but as you say he wasn't alone. Things were already lining up.

If you take a good hard "truly objective" look at our playoff games they really maintain the same theme. Save a quarter or so here and there. You know the list - Dead offense in 2nd half with no visible adjustments, bad game plans with no ability to shift on the fly. Defense that has been gashed in the running game and produced little to no turnovers. You could go on and on.

That has little chance of changing IMHO. If he hasn't got it to the tune of 0-7 what makes anyone think this is the year ? If we do win a playoff game this year it will be because the players overcome the coaching.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-14-2016, 07:44 PM)kevin Wrote: I voted Marvin Lewis because from 1991 to 2002 The Bengals were not just the worst team in the NFL but considered the worst franchise in all pro sports....The Vikings were not that bad for Zimmer......Coach Lewis still one of the first black head coaches, not the first,but one of the first. It was a great Branch Rickey move by Bengals because no top white head coach in his right mind wanted the Bengals job after 2002, this was the worst NFL franchise going.  Call it racism or whatever but there were good black assistant coaches more than ready to become head coaches. The Bengals dipped into that pool of coaches and it was a great move....Lewis did the impossible taking the worst NFL franchise and turning it around to 7 play-off seasons in 13 years which is over 50 % of the time in the play-offs that was going to the play-offs none of the time from 1991 to 2002 and known for their 4-12 seasons or worse. ......I remember how stinking awful the Bengals were and do not ever tell me those were good teams....Coach Lewis turning the worst team in the NFL into a team that has gone play-offs 7 out of his 13 seasons and 6 out of the last 7 is amazing.  I do not know how he turned this stinking franchise around. Few coaches could have. It has indeed been a Lombardi like effort bringing winning to the sad sack Bengals......To those who always want Coach Lewis fired, be careful what you wish for. Without Coach Lewis I see this Cincinnati franchise reverting back to their 1990's form of being the worst team in the NFL, and maybe pulling out of Cincinnati all together for some other city. 

This thread seems to have gotten way off track.

I simply asked who you rather have coaching the 2016 Bengals.  Same roster as now, same schedule, same everything.  You get your choice of 2016 Marvin Lewis or 2016 Mike Zimmer.  One coaching coming off an 11-5 first round playoff exit, another coming off a 12-4 first round playoff exit.  One with 13 years on the job, one with 2 years one job.

Again, this year's team, this year's coaches.

What does what the Bengals did from '92 to '03 have to do with answering that question?  What does what either walked into have to do with that question?

The question wasn't who did a better job rebuilding.  The question wasn't who inherited a bigger mess.  I mean, if you would like to discuss then, by all means, go for it.  Start a separate thread even.  Just don't  act like that's an appropriate rebuttal to a harmless question.

Who gets this team further this year?  That's it.  Who do you want?  If you're going with Marvin if for no reason other than he's turned around what used to be a laughingstock then that's fine I guess.  Although it kinda seems like a waste of breath, as far as convincing anyone that's he's the right choice now.  The fact we were bad in 1995 is irrelevant to who is the better coach in 2016.

This is how I feel this discussion has developed:

Q-"Who makes better pizza, Papa Johns or Domino's?"
A-"Papa Johns was my first job.  I liked it there.  They did a lot for the local school's sports team when I was there."
Q-"Ok, but who's pizza do you like better?"
A-"I was eating Papa Johns at a pool party one time. It was fun."
Q- "Wh... I..I..I don't know... We're getting off track.  Do you like Papa Johns or Dominos more?"
A- "Oh, Little Ceasars is the worst. Did you know Ken Griffey Jr. went to Moeller?"

[The Real Deal]

(08-14-2016, 10:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This thread seems to have gotten way off track.

I simply asked who you rather have coaching the 2016 Bengals.  Same roster as now, same schedule, same everything.  You get your choice of 2016 Marvin Lewis or 2016 Mike Zimmer.  One coaching coming off an 11-5 first round playoff exit, another coming off a 12-4 first round playoff exit.  One with 13 years on the job, one with 2 years one job.

Again, this year's team, this year's coaches.

What does what the Bengals did from '92 to '03 have to do with answering that question?  What does what either walked into have to do with that question?

The question wasn't who did a better job rebuilding.  The question wasn't who inherited a bigger mess.  I mean, if you would like to discuss then, by all means, go for it.  Start a separate thread even.  Just don't  act like that's an appropriate rebuttal to a harmless question.

Who gets this team further this year?  That's it.  Who do you want?  If you're going with Marvin if for no reason other than he's turned around what used to be a laughingstock then that's fine I guess.  Although it kinda seems like a waste of breath, as far as convincing anyone that's he's the right choice now.  The fact we were bad in 1995 is irrelevant to who is the better coach in 2016.

This is how I feel this discussion has developed:

Q-"Who makes better pizza, Papa Johns or Domino's?"
A-"Papa Johns was my first job.  I liked it there.  They did a lot for the local school's sports team when I was there."
Q-"Ok, but who's pizza do you like better?"
A-"I was eating Papa Johns at a pool party one time. It was fun."
Q- "Wh... I..I..I don't know... We're getting off track.  Do you like Papa Johns or Dominos more?"
A- "Oh, Little Ceasars is the worst. Did you know Ken Griffey Jr. went to Moeller?"

With those choices, papa Johns, hands down. And that garlic butter they sneak in the box for you, bliss.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-14-2016, 10:43 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: With those choices, papa Johns, hands down. And that garlic butter they sneak in the box for you, bliss.

Alright, we got some pizza talk!

Papa Johns is probably my less favorite of the two.  Which is weird because I used to really like it.  So I actually prefer the old Domino's though.  It wasn't great pizza but it was good for what it was.  Now it seems like they're trying to hard to make a crappy pizza seem better.  Sauce is too sweet, their crust has that weird crust topper.  Not a fan but I do dig their deep dish though.

Fwiw, here are Toast Jones Local Chain Pizza Rankings:

1.) Larosas (Still the champ)
2.) Donatos (Would be #1 but not filling enough)
3.) Jets (awesome taste but probably the most fattening of the bunch)
4.) Dominos (They're trying)
5.) Papa Johns (Warm cardboard with below average cheese. Bonus - Comes with sauce to mask lack of flavor)
6.) Marco's (Basically if Papa Johns and Dominos had a baby, and make a shittier, generic pizza.

[The Real Deal]

(08-14-2016, 11:24 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Alright, we got some pizza talk!

Papa Johns is probably my less favorite of the two.  Which is weird because I used to really like it.  So I actually prefer the old Domino's though.  It wasn't great pizza but it was good for what it was.  Now it seems like they're trying to hard to make a crappy pizza seem better.  Sauce is too sweet, their crust has that weird crust topper.  Not a fan but I do dig their deep dish though.

Fwiw, here are Toast Jones Local Chain Pizza Rankings:

1.) Larosas (Still the champ)
2.) Donatos (Would be #1 but not filling enough)
3.) Jets (awesome taste but probably the most fattening of the bunch)
4.) Dominos (They're trying)
5.) Papa Johns (Warm cardboard with below average cheese. Bonus - Comes with sauce to mask lack of flavor)
6.) Marco's (Basically if Papa Johns and Dominos had a baby, and make a shittier, generic pizza.

On point with larosas at #1. I've missed that place since moving to the south.
I've also got donatos at 2, mariachi beef with extra jalapeños and extra sour cream packets. Unfortunately we don't have donatos down here either.
3. Giovanni's (again, none here)
4.Pizza Hut, I'm a sucker for that greasy pan crust of theirs and their cheese breadsticks.
5.  Papa johns (that sauce tho! and a free pepperoncini!!)

[Essex Johnson]

(08-13-2016, 11:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Boy did you pick the right team to root for then, because he's going to be here for another decade or so...rain or come shine.  Mikey and Marvin should be what people point to when they want to exemplify a rock solid marriage that weathers any storm.

Brings a damn tear to my eye.

You have a right to your opinion even if it is wrong

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2016, 10:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This thread seems to have gotten way off track.

I simply asked who you rather have coaching the 2016 Bengals.  Same roster as now, same schedule, same everything.  You get your choice of 2016 Marvin Lewis or 2016 Mike Zimmer.  One coaching coming off an 11-5 first round playoff exit, another coming off a 12-4 first round playoff exit.  One with 13 years on the job, one with 2 years one job.

Again, this year's team, this year's coaches.

What does what the Bengals did from '92 to '03 have to do with answering that question?  What does what either walked into have to do with that question?

The question wasn't who did a better job rebuilding.  The question wasn't who inherited a bigger mess.  I mean, if you would like to discuss then, by all means, go for it.  Start a separate thread even.  Just don't  act like that's an appropriate rebuttal to a harmless question.

Who gets this team further this year?  That's it.  Who do you want?  If you're going with Marvin if for no reason other than he's turned around what used to be a laughingstock then that's fine I guess.  Although it kinda seems like a waste of breath, as far as convincing anyone that's he's the right choice now.  The fact we were bad in 1995 is irrelevant to who is the better coach in 2016.

This is how I feel this discussion has developed:

Q-"Who makes better pizza, Papa Johns or Domino's?"
A-"Papa Johns was my first job.  I liked it there.  They did a lot for the local school's sports team when I was there."
Q-"Ok, but who's pizza do you like better?"
A-"I was eating Papa Johns at a pool party one time. It was fun."
Q- "Wh... I..I..I don't know... We're getting off track.  Do you like Papa Johns or Dominos more?"
A- "Oh, Little Ceasars is the worst. Did you know Ken Griffey Jr. went to Moeller?"

Well if we are not allowed to look at any history or the track record  of either then there is no way you can not pick Marvin because his team was better last year.  

But how exactly are we supposed to judge how good a coach is without looking at his track record and what he has done in the past with different levels of talent?

"Man, I am such a better driver than you.  I just left you in my dust."
"But you were driving Porsche 911 GT and I was in a Kia Sportage."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look at how much faster I was than you."

"Man, the Reds are so much better than the Cubs.  Did you see how bad they beat them last night."
"The Reds are 20 games behind the Cubs in the standings."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look how the Reds beat the cubs last night."

[*jason*]

You guys would love Panzera's pizza if you're ever up Columbus way.

It's a coin toss between Lewis and Zimmer.

[The Real Deal]

(08-15-2016, 12:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Well if we are not allowed to look at any history or the track record  of either then there is no way you can not pick Marvin because his team was better last year.  

But how exactly are we supposed to judge how good a coach is without looking at his track record and what he has done in the past with different levels of talent?

"Man, I am such a better driver than you.  I just left you in my dust."
"But you were driving Porsche 911 GT and I was in a Kia Sportage."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look at how much faster I was than you."

"Man, the Reds are so much better than the Cubs.  Did you see how bad they beat them last night."
"The Reds are 20 games behind the Cubs in the standings."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look how the Reds beat the cubs last night."

The thing about this post is what are your top pizza chains?

[*bfine32*]

(08-14-2016, 10:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This thread seems to have gotten way off track.

I simply asked who you rather have coaching the 2016 Bengals.  Same roster as now, same schedule, same everything.  You get your choice of 2016 Marvin Lewis or 2016 Mike Zimmer.  One coaching coming off an 11-5 first round playoff exit, another coming off a 12-4 first round playoff exit.  One with 13 years on the job, one with 2 years one job.

Again, this year's team, this year's coaches.

What does what the Bengals did from '92 to '03 have to do with answering that question?  What does what either walked into have to do with that question?

The question wasn't who did a better job rebuilding.  The question wasn't who inherited a bigger mess.  I mean, if you would like to discuss then, by all means, go for it.  Start a separate thread even.  Just don't  act like that's an appropriate rebuttal to a harmless question.

Who gets this team further this year?  That's it.  Who do you want?  If you're going with Marvin if for no reason other than he's turned around what used to be a laughingstock then that's fine I guess.  Although it kinda seems like a waste of breath, as far as convincing anyone that's he's the right choice now.  The fact we were bad in 1995 is irrelevant to who is the better coach in 2016.

This is how I feel this discussion has developed:

Q-"Who makes better pizza, Papa Johns or Domino's?"
A-"Papa Johns was my first job.  I liked it there.  They did a lot for the local school's sports team when I was there."
Q-"Ok, but who's pizza do you like better?"
A-"I was eating Papa Johns at a pool party one time. It was fun."
Q- "Wh... I..I..I don't know... We're getting off track.  Do you like Papa Johns or Dominos more?"
A- "Oh, Little Ceasars is the worst. Did you know Ken Griffey Jr. went to Moeller?"

Not considering history: why would anybody choose an older coach with less experience? 

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-15-2016, 12:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Well if we are not allowed to look at any history or the track record  of either then there is no way you can not pick Marvin because his team was better last year.  

But how exactly are we supposed to judge how good a coach is without looking at his track record and what he has done in the past with different levels of talent?

"Man, I am such a better driver than you.  I just left you in my dust."
"But you were driving Porsche 911 GT and I was in a Kia Sportage."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look at how much faster I was than you."

"Man, the Reds are so much better than the Cubs.  Did you see how bad they beat them last night."
"The Reds are 20 games behind the Cubs in the standings."
"Why you talking about all that meaningless stuff.  Just look how the Reds beat the cubs last night."

How is the Bengals record/performance from the years prior to 2003 part of Marvin's track record?  What does 1995 have to do with Marvin Lewis?

If any of you want to make the point, or answer the question with, that Marvin has the better track record then be my guest.  But no one has really done just that.  Probably because it could be easily debated.  And if anyone feels like Marvin has more experience then that's definitely a point you can make.

But when you start bringing up what happened here before he came then it's seems like a desperate attempt to just award him some bonus points for something that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I think most people would agree that most coaches walk into bad situations.  And I think even more would agree that that would be fair to say about both Marvin and Zimmer.  And I would hope all of us would realize that debating who walked into a worse situation is entirely different than debating who is the better coach in 2016.

Sorry, it just seems some are either too desperate to change the subject or too defensive to answer honestly.  And fwiw, there's nothing wrong with Marvin being your answer. 

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2016, 12:42 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think most people would agree that most coaches walk into bad situations.  

Actually it is not very common for a coach to get a team that is just one year removed from making the playoffs like Zimmer did.

(08-15-2016, 12:42 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:  And I would hope all of us would realize that debating who walked into a worse situation is entirely different than debating who is the better coach in 2016. 

Mike Zimmer only has TWO years experience as a head coach.  In order to compare him to Marvin we have to look at what Marvin did in his first two years, and when you look at a coaches first two seasons you have to look at how much talent he inherited.

[OrlandoBengal]

I would choose Zimmer because I believe we have seen the best of Marvin and Zimmer's best is still an unknown. I saw a chart a few weeks ago that showed the four most tenured coaches in the NFL, and Marvin has by far the lowest winning percentage of any. I know, I know... "look where the franchise was before him". I think he is owed a debt of gratitude for turning it around, but I don't see him being able to take this franchise all the way.