Andy Dalton is for real

[Shake n Blake]

(09-11-2016, 11:03 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You were not alone, my friend.  This board, and the one prior, was divided in to two camps...I have supported him from the start and it is nice to see him finally getting some respect.  It isn't a matter of "I was right, you were wrong" but now we can focus on things other than our starting QB....it is Dalton, until he retires.

Well said. I was arguing on Dalton's behalf with guys like mulligan pretty much from the time he was drafted. Things were split down the middle with him almost from day 1. It really heated up in years 2 and 3. Fortunately, Dalton debates are almost a thing of the past. If he wins a playoff game or 3, I'd like to think that everyone will finally be in agreement. He's done a lot for this franchise, but that one hurdle remains for him and the team.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2016, 12:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well said. I was arguing on Dalton's behalf with guys like mulligan pretty much from the time he was drafted. Things were split down the middle with him almost from day 1. It really heated up in years 2 and 3. Fortunately, Dalton debates are almost a thing of the past. If he wins a playoff game or 3, I'd like to think that everyone will finally be in agreement. He's done a lot for this franchise, but that one hurdle remains for him and the team.

The problem with Dalton was that he was just good enough to not be easily replaced.  Neither side had a rock solid argument because he was neither among the top ten nor the bottom ten.  

And if Andy were to have a bad season this year because he was sacked 60 times and lost both Green and Eifert to injury the vultures would be right back out.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-12-2016, 01:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem with Dalton was that he was just good enough to not be easily replaced.  Neither side had a rock solid argument because he was neither among the top ten nor the bottom ten.  

And if Andy were to have a bad season this year because he was sacked 60 times and lost both Green and Eifert to injury the vultures would be right back out.

I'm not so sure he would have a bad season if he lost Eifert and Green.  He had some of his best statistical days without either.  That's the point.  The guy has been given the keys to the car and has demonstrated that he deserves them.

[fredtoast]

(09-11-2016, 10:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Kenny and Boomer both had MVP's and Super Bowl appearances, so I still have them at the top, even though they were less consistent.

Other than the Super Bowl season (12-4) Boomer was only 50-57 in his first 9 seasons ('84-'92) with the Bengals (he returned as a spot starter in '97 to go 4-1 for a losing team), but he has much more accomplished than Dalton at the same point in his career.  In his first 5 years Boomer already had three seasons where he finished in the top 5 in the league in yards, tds, and passer rating.  He would end his career with 6 seasons finishing in the top 10 in all three.  Dalton has never done that once yet. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-12-2016, 01:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem with Dalton was that he was just good enough to not be easily replaced.  Neither side had a rock solid argument because he was neither among the top ten nor the bottom ten.  

And if Andy were to have a bad season this year because he was sacked 60 times and lost both Green and Eifert to injury the vultures would be right back out.

It might sound silly, but even when he was putting up average-ish numbers, I always felt like he was a key reason why we were winning.

Almost like a Flacco or (until recently) Roethlisberger. Those 2 haven't always put up sexy numbers, but they played well in key moments and led their offenses better than maybe the numbers indicated. Obviously Dalton has taken a step up now, but I always felt like he was an asset.

You're right though. The average-ish stats allowed there to be 2 sides to the debate.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-12-2016, 12:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well said. I was arguing on Dalton's behalf with guys like mulligan pretty much from the time he was drafted. Things were split down the middle with him almost from day 1. It really heated up in years 2 and 3. Fortunately, Dalton debates are almost a thing of the past. If he wins a playoff game or 3, I'd like to think that everyone will finally be in agreement. He's done a lot for this franchise, but that one hurdle remains for him and the team.

Whenever I think of our QB, I also think of the two or three other players on our roster that the Bengals are able to afford and still stay under the cap because of the incredible value that we are getting for Dalton.  The debates you speak of heated up BIG TIME when he signed that contract, but now people are seeing that he is the best value in the NFL and it isn't even close. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-12-2016, 01:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Other than the Super Bowl season (12-4) Boomer was only 50-57 in his first 9 seasons ('84-'92) with the Bengals (he returned as a spot starter in '97 to go 4-1 for a losing team), but he has much more accomplished than Dalton at the same point in his career.  In his first 5 years Boomer already had three seasons where he finished in the top 5 in the league in yards, tds, and passer rating.  He would end his career with 6 seasons finishing in the top 10 in all three.  Dalton has never done that once yet. 

He has finished in the top 5 in TDs and passer rating, I believe but not yards, TDs, and rating all in the same season.  Let's not forget also the team that Dalton took over was not expected by many to win a single game...the result?  Playoffs. 

I think it is hard to say that, individually, Boomer accomplished much more than Dalton in the first five seasons when Dalton has taken his team to the playoffs each of those seasons.  Offenses in Boomer's day had not been as wide open as they are today (hence, Dalton breaking the franchise records for yards and TDs) but his team was one of the first with the WCO (I prefer Ohio River Offense) which when combined with the no-huddle was a unique and potent offensive strategy. 

Boomer was the master of the play-action fake, and I loved his leadership, but in today's NFL where almost every offense is wide-open, I think I wouldn't agree that Boomer accomplished "much more" than Dalton at the same point of their careers. 

[Crowe]

(09-11-2016, 06:10 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: 2nd best QB on the day so far (still have Brady and Ben to go though...and one might make an argument for Jameis Winston who had 4 TDs and 1 INT even though he had less yards).

True, but Jameis got to play against the Falcants and one of his TD's was a 3 yard dumpoff where the rb did all the work to make the play a TD.

[Luvnit2]

(09-12-2016, 01:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem with Dalton was that he was just good enough to not be easily replaced.  Neither side had a rock solid argument because he was neither among the top ten nor the bottom ten.  

And if Andy were to have a bad season this year because he was sacked 60 times and lost both Green and Eifert to injury the vultures would be right back out.

My point to Mulligan and a few others was while AD was putting up (above average numbers IMHO), he was young, his receivers were young too. My point was he potentially could be great. Kudos to the FO and Mike Brown for seeing the greatness in AD and ignoring the hate signing him to a long term deal. Kudos to AD for signing it when he could have held out and got much more on the open market.

Some of us like Shake and Racer saw more positives long term for AD than many others. I don;t recall any of us saying he was elite his first 4 years. But I do recall many saying he was not good and would never be good. They were dead wrong in the end.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Dalton remained calm, collected and made good throws despite quite possibly the worst offensive line performance I have ever witnessed.

Game ball sir.

[Luvnit2]

(09-12-2016, 08:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Whenever I think of our QB, I also think of the two or three other players on our roster that the Bengals are able to afford and still stay under the cap because of the incredible value that we are getting for Dalton.  The debates you speak of heated up BIG TIME when he signed that contract, but now people are seeing that he is the best value in the NFL and it isn't even close. 

+ Rep

Great point

[WestCoastBengalsFan]

(09-11-2016, 06:05 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: Imagine the kind of numbers he could have put up had he not been knocked on his keyster all day.

It's spelled keister, but I'm with ya. Go Dalton!

[Essex Johnson]

(09-12-2016, 10:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My point to Mulligan and a few others was while AD was putting up (above average numbers IMHO), he was young, his receivers were young too. My point was he potentially could be great. Kudos to the FO and Mike Brown for seeing the greatness in AD and ignoring the hate signing him to a long term deal. Kudos to AD for signing it when he could have held out and got much more on the open market.

Some of us like Shake and Racer saw more positives long term for AD than many others. I don;t recall any of us saying he was elite his first 4 years. But I do recall many saying he was not good and would never be good. They were dead wrong in the end.

Very valid point, those supporters like myself rarely declared Andy elite in his first 4 years but I can remember people putting him in lower tier of the QBs in those first 4 years.  I am not ready to say he is in elite class but if puts back and back seasons together of strong QB performance, he is right on the cusp of top tier QB in today's game.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2016, 10:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My point to Mulligan and a few others was while AD was putting up (above average numbers IMHO), he was young, his receivers were young too. My point was he potentially could be great.

I said the same thing and added that he did not have good running game to take the pressure off of him.

But at the end of the day it is hard to argue "potential".

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-11-2016, 06:07 PM)Joelist Wrote: Even the INT wasn't a bad play - if Boyd breaks back to the ball (rookie mistake) it is at worst incomplete.

......not to mention, he got smacked in the mouth as he was throwing.  If the call on MJ90 was legit for roughing, then AD should've gotten the helmet to helmet on that one.

(09-11-2016, 06:23 PM)Emphasis Wrote: I tend to visit opposing team's message boards from time to time, and they always say pressure on Dalton is our biggest weakness.

I've never really believed that before, and hell if I do now. It seems he's getting noticeably better as the games go by.

Yes, he is.  Very early on, as with most very young QBs, he would get the "happy feet" often under duress.  That is a thing of the past, and really has been since '14.  Numbers wise, he had a down year in '14, but to me, that was the year he "came of age".  A lot of offensive injuries, and some on D, but Andy did whatever it took to put us in position to win games.  It wasn't always pretty, but to me, that is the year he took over this offense.  Look at the first drive of the Ravens game in '14....while he still had Eifert as a threat.  The offense was in overdrive.

(09-11-2016, 06:26 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: Andy had a great game after a slow start. Took a real problem (getting sacked every play and atrocious OL play) and turned it into the above stats and a W. The cream of the crop wouldn't have been any better today, Andy put up an elite performance out there.

I'd still like to see him do this week in, week out. But you can't argue with the way Andy has played since the beginning of last season. He has really taken a jump forward. Let's hope he can keep it going.

Yeah, was gonna say, he pretty much did it week in and week out last season.  Even the greatest have off games.

(09-11-2016, 06:29 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Agree.  I remember when they were debating the draft choice between Dalton and Kaepernick.  We win.
SaveSave

 
Ha ha ha ha, no shit.

(09-11-2016, 07:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've been saying it for awhile, but I think this is a big strength of Dalton's that is rarely talked about. He just doesn't cough the ball up much for a QB. Pretty impressive that he didn't cough it up on 7 sacks.

To the OP, Dalton has been for real his entire career, IMO. He's just taken another step and become an elite QB now. It's nice not having to argue with haters (lately) because even the biggest haters can't find fault in Andy's performance over the last year. That said, Dalton definitely still has haters and they'll be out in force when he finally has a bad game.

He rarely does cough it up....except for the fluke against San Diego....ugh.  Anyway, I was right there with you.....as I said above, I even respected his play in 2014 against adversity.  I really believe that season was crucial in growth.  He needed to learn to spread the ball around more, even though he had taken steps toward that in '13.....he was forced to in '14.

(09-11-2016, 07:10 PM)bengalsfan73 Wrote: Andy showed today like most of the true Andy supporters have know the whole time, that he is getting better every game. He has taken full control of the offense and is now the leader we had all hoped he would become. So I am tired of everyone else saying he is going to miss Hue Jackson because that is not true at all. If anything, he showed today that he is going to take this offense to bigger and better things with Ken Zampese. I also hope that the so called AJ McCarron lovers will stop with all of the nonsense saying that he is better than Andy and that the Bengals would be better off with him as qb. If Andy stays healthy this team will finally break the playoff win drought this year and he will definitely have a legit shot at MVP consideration.

.....agree, however, the only thing I didn't like yesterday, was I felt we should have ran more early on to slow down the pass rush.  It seemed they didn't want to run.  As the game progressed, the run game got going.  Gio and Hill looked like gangbusters out there...moving piles, running with authority and decisiveness.  I don't know who's shoulders that was on, but I just feel they could have ran a tad more to start.  Obviously, I'm picking nits, but it was noticeable to me, anyway.

(09-11-2016, 07:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You say that as if they hadn't always been rather silly, Beaker.  

Worse than silly....

(09-11-2016, 07:31 PM)McC Wrote: Maybe it's time to just take all the who said what about Andy in the past, put it in a building, blow it up and move on.  What did Andy do with all the negativity?  He used it to fuel his fire and work as hard as he did to get this good.   And now that he could shove it back in people's faces about how wrong they were about him, he never will.  

Maybe we follow Andy's example.

Andy is a great player, an outstanding citizen,a man of character and we are lucky as hell to have him.

Indeed we are.....

(09-11-2016, 07:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Starting at Center

Ain't that the damn truth!!!! Alexander needs fired over this....

(09-11-2016, 09:49 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Only an elite quarterback could have won that game today.  Andy Dalton got tossed like a salad yet he managed to put the offense on his shoulders and he would not be denied.  If CJ Uzomah had pulled that pass in early in the game the Bengals would have put the game away in the second quarter.  Speaking thereof, what about CJ?  He had a beautiful reception for 50 yards and his "yards after catch" statistic was phenomenal.  

Andy Dalton is elite, Bengaldom.  He threw at Darrelle Revis all day and compiled a perfect quarterback rating of 158.3 on passes sent toward Revis Island.

Good to see you back posting F.I.K.  Yeah, very impressed with CJ.  Derrelle who?

(09-11-2016, 11:00 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dalton hasn't taken a beating like that since the AZ game last year.  He stood in there tough against AZ as well, but the MASH unit that was our defense that day wasn't up to the task. 

Dalton just keeps checking things off the "Bengal's Black List":

Never won on the West Coast- Done.  Even beat Seattle in Seattle.

Jets haven't lost a home opener in 5 years, and the Bengals  haven't won there in over 20.  Done, today, against what had to be the most hostile (loud) crowd in the NFL today.

Bengals never win on the road- I think he has the 2nd best road record in the NFL over the past 5 years.

I LOVED seeing the fire in him after Nuge made that kick.  I love Dalton, and I wouldn't trade him at this point in their careers for anyone.  Thank GOD he turned a deaf ear to all the assbag critics of him...and never spouted off about it.  Pure class, Dalton.

Dalton is all class.  It takes time for QBs to mature, even the ones loaded with natural ability.  People were so impatient with him.....they're looking a little foolish now.

(09-12-2016, 08:16 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: He has finished in the top 5 in TDs and passer rating, I believe but not yards, TDs, and rating all in the same season.  Let's not forget also the team that Dalton took over was not expected by many to win a single game...the result?  Playoffs. 

I think it is hard to say that, individually, Boomer accomplished much more than Dalton in the first five seasons when Dalton has taken his team to the playoffs each of those seasons.  Offenses in Boomer's day had not been as wide open as they are today (hence, Dalton breaking the franchise records for yards and TDs) but his team was one of the first with the WCO (I prefer Ohio River Offense) which when combined with the no-huddle was a unique and potent offensive strategy. 

Boomer was the master of the play-action fake, and I loved his leadership, but in today's NFL where almost every offense is wide-open, I think I wouldn't agree that Boomer accomplished "much more" than Dalton at the same point of their careers. 

Meh, I dunno, Boomer was a league MVP, and put up rather gaudy passing numbers for the time....a few playoff wins and an AFCCC.

(09-12-2016, 10:39 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Very valid point, those supporters like myself rarely declared Andy elite in his first 4 years but I can remember people putting him in lower tier of the QBs in those first 4 years.  I am not ready to say he is in elite class but if puts back and back seasons together of strong QB performance, he is right on the cusp of top tier QB in today's game.

Yeah, I had him about average early on, and in the top 10 by 2013.  He's approaching top 5-6.....



I'd like to add something I haven't seen mentioned here.  Dude was 23/30 366 1/1....with the well noted pressure all day.  What has been overlooked some, is that he did it without Eifert, and with a WR corps that he had never played a regular season down with, outside of AJ Green.  Good show indeed Mr. Dalton.

[OnlyBengalsFanInTown]

Andy once again showed why he is our franchise quarterback and one of the top 5 game managers in the NFL. However, if we don't start protecting him better from here on out, McCarron will be leading the stripes in the playoffs again.

[Luvnit2]

(09-12-2016, 01:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I said the same thing and added that he did not have good running game to take the pressure off of him.

But at the end of the day it is hard to argue "potential".

True, hard to argue potential. But after the fact, it is easy to argue who was correct and who was not correct. Some saw it with AD and went out on a limb while others did not.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-11-2016, 06:03 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Sacked 7 times, hit or hurried how many more? Yet he still goes "quietly" 23-30 for 366 yds. And a 114.0 QBR. 

He had a bit of a rough start but make no mistake folks, We have our franchise QB. It has clicked and I'd  put him right up there with almost any other QB in the league. We will go as far as he takes us and that's a great thing because he is fully capable of taking us to the promised land. I firmly believe He's as good as any in the game right now. He can do it all and I love being able to label him as MY TEAMS quarterback!

WHO DEY?!?  

Feel the exact same way. Dude had his best game of his career yesterday IMHO. Getting hit that much and he
was completely unphased. Just kept plugging away and adjusting to what the Defense gave him.

Truly inspiring for the whole team and fans. Green be great too of course and Lafell looks to fill the MLJ void.

[The Real Deal]

(09-12-2016, 01:11 PM)OnlyBengalsFanInTown Wrote: Andy once again showed why he is our franchise quarterback and one of the top 5 game managers in the NFL. However, if we don't start protecting him better from here on out, McCarron will be leading the stripes in the playoffs again.

[Daddy-O]

(09-11-2016, 11:00 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dalton hasn't taken a beating like that since the AZ game last year.  He stood in there tough against AZ as well, but the MASH unit that was our defense that day wasn't up to the task. 

Dalton just keeps checking things off the "Bengal's Black List":

Never won on the West Coast- Done.  Even beat Seattle in Seattle.

Jets haven't lost a home opener in 5 years, and the Bengals  haven't won there in over 20.  Done, today, against what had to be the most hostile (loud) crowd in the NFL today.

Bengals never win on the road- I think he has the 2nd best road record in the NFL over the past 5 years.

I LOVED seeing the fire in him after Nuge made that kick.  I love Dalton, and I wouldn't trade him at this point in their careers for anyone.  Thank GOD he turned a deaf ear to all the assbag critics of him...and never spouted off about it.  Pure class, Dalton.

I agree with your last statement.  I was watching the Colts yesterday, and although Luck had a good game, would not trade him straight up for Dalton today.  I'll probably get bashed for saying that but I wouldn't.  He has become and extremely intelligent QB and doesn't fold when things get tough.