B/R ranks Bengals QB supporting cast #1

[djs7685]

(06-25-2015, 10:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I get the 40 wins is a team stat, but they measure it for QBs just like they do come from behind wins...and he has quite a few of those.  Regardless, to answer your question, you referred to just two games in an earlier post.  As far as your general focus goes, it seems that 95% of your time is spent bashing Dalton.  You may not have specifically called him a "dud", but when you focus on two games in his career where you claim he had "no pressure" but still had a poor performance, it shows a clear bias against him.  You neglect the point of no AJ Green, no Marvin Jones, no Tyler Eifert completely.  You also try to diminish his good play by saying that any QB can do that when he isn't pressured.  You ignore the fact that he faces three very tough defenses twice a year in his division.  How about going 2-0 against the Ravens last year?  Any credit at all?  Or are you just going to say those were team wins and he isn't a very good QB.

If the offensive line at Cleveland is so good, and they had Josh Gordon, Cameron, Andrew Hawkins, etc., why could no QB have success there? 

I "focused" on those games in 2 of my posts to show you that your "he always picks teams apart when he's clean" wasn't true. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't "focus" on only those 2 games in my regular posting around here.

How is it a clear bias that I disprove your theory and NOT a clear bias when you have to take part of the game of football out to say he picks teams apart? Pressure HAPPENS in the NFL for every single team whether you like that or not. You can't just say "well he's good when he isn't pressured therefore he's good". That's silly. THAT is the exact definition of a biased point. You're taking away a part of the game to find a way to say that he's a good QB. 100% biased.

I didn't neglect anything, I have no problem saying that he has pretty good stats (usually) when he's not under pressure. Again, most starting caliber NFL QBs also have pretty good stats when they aren't under pressure. Do you disagree? We could look into some in depth statistics to prove/disprove that if you'd like. Let me know.

I find it hilarious that you claim that I'm "ignoring" things that we haven't even talked about! He faces good defenses, sure. You bring up 2-0 against Baltimore but you don't want to talk about 0-2 against Pittsburgh and 1-1 against the Stains? Huh, and this whole time I thought I was the biased one

The offensive line and talent is actually pretty good in Cleveland, saying that no QB could have success there is a flat out lie. If a decent QB went there, they'd have a pretty dang talented roster. The fact of the matter is they suck at QB evaluation (thankfully), so they're always a mess. Their QBs minus a few good games from Hoyer have been pretty much garbage for quite some time. Andy doesn't suck, and I've never, ever, ever said that he does.

[Joelist]

I'm not at all sure I'd rate the supporting cast #1. For one thing, we have our #1 TE and #2 WR returning from season ending injury. Until they do it in live game competition we don't know how fully back they are. Then there is AJ who missed significant time to injury and also our having a rookie TE in the mix (Kroft) as well.

OL is a bit hard to pin down. We've been good at the tackles for a while but have been notorious in both the Andy and Carson eras for having issues with interior pass protection. It is a major reason for our 2.2 second release time on passes and really we haven't yet truly fixed it (and it is also why the PFF pressure stats are not usable - getting the ball out so quick distorts both the sack and pressure numbers). Ghiacuc was the worst center in the NFL, Cook was only a bit better and Bodine struggled last season. Boling has had issues in pass protection too and Nate Livings before him was absolutely putrid. It is also why our QBs constantly lack any sort of decent pocket to step up into.

So...if our returning injured players are really 100% back and we solve the interior blocking then I'd rate the group pretty high. Otherwise...not so much.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-25-2015, 10:55 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I "focused" on those games in 2 of my posts to show you that your "he always picks teams apart when he's clean" wasn't true. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't "focus" on only those 2 games in my regular posting around here.

How is it a clear bias that I disprove your theory and NOT a clear bias when you have to take part of the game of football out to say he picks teams apart? Pressure HAPPENS in the NFL for every single team whether you like that or not. You can't just say "well he's good when he isn't pressured therefore he's good". That's silly. THAT is the exact definition of a biased point. You're taking away a part of the game to find a way to say that he's a good QB. 100% biased.

I didn't neglect anything, I have no problem saying that he has pretty good stats (usually) when he's not under pressure. Again, most starting caliber NFL QBs also have pretty good stats when they aren't under pressure. Do you disagree? We could look into some in depth statistics to prove/disprove that if you'd like. Let me know.

I find it hilarious that you claim that I'm "ignoring" things that we haven't even talked about! He faces good defenses, sure. You bring up 2-0 against Baltimore but you don't want to talk about 0-2 against Pittsburgh and 1-1 against the Stains? Huh, and this whole time I thought I was the biased one

The offensive line and talent is actually pretty good in Cleveland, saying that no QB could have success there is a flat out lie. If a decent QB went there, they'd have a pretty dang talented roster. The fact of the matter is they suck at QB evaluation (thankfully), so they're always a mess. Their QBs minus a few good games from Hoyer have been pretty much garbage for quite some time. Andy doesn't suck, and I've never, ever, ever said that he does.

I think you added the "always".  I said when he is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  You have done nothing to discredit that statement.  The two weak examples you provided do not come close to painting a picture of a different truth.  You get defensive about me illustrating your lack of evidence by only providing those two games out of his career and start whining about wins are not QB stats.  At least you admitted that he has "pretty good stats" when is kept clean.  Do I believe most starting caliber QBs have pretty good stats if they are not under pressure?  Well, you would have to define "starting caliber QBs". 

You did ignore the point about opposing defenses, though...thanks for acknowledging it this time around. 

And if you read what I posted, I asked why no QB has HAD success in Cleveland.  Not that I feel another QB could at all....the point was that they have a good line and some weapons but their QB play sucks and you seem to think it would be easy for anyone if they are kept clean.

This started because you tried to find a way to discredit my statement that "when he is kept clean, he picks teams apart".  And you have still not managed to discredit that.  You did, however, recently acknowledge that he has "pretty good" stats in those scenarios and also that he faces tough defenses.  That is at least a start in to understanding that what I said was accurate. 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Does this mean that the Cincinnati Bengals are Super Bowl bound barring injuries to key positions?

If everyone on this team stays healthy, the Bengals will go to the Super Bowl and will win, but they will not win a playoff game is the injuries suffered last year happen again this year.

[XenoMorph]

(06-23-2015, 01:48 AM)J24 Wrote: I agree with this list we have a very good Offensive line, a great WR with a solid supporting cast, and two outstanding RBs. I don't think its a shot at Andy to say Andy's supporting cast is great. Lets not forget that Andy has put up some decent numbers in his career & has led a team to 4 straight playoffs in his first 4 seasons as well. So anybody that says Andy flat out sucks is full of crap.

Heres hoping the supporting class stays healthy till february

[Utts]

Eifert and MLJ need to demonstrate they can produce over the course of a full season, not to mention they're coming off of injuries.

Gio is not much more than an adequate backup at this point, unless the Bengals figure out how to use him effectively.

If this group is #1 the NFL is in bad shape.