The Bengals need to move on from Jeremy Hill

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-20-2016, 10:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Hewitt played 43.9% of the offensive snaps in 2014 and 35.5% of the offensive snaps in 2015*. So bad news, you're still getting old. Good news, not too old to recall that yet. Lol

Partially could be explained by the whiffing. If you're less effective, you get less snaps, etc, but he still played a non-insignificant number of snaps.


*Hewitt missed a game in 2015.

Ha! Thanks.....I think.

I thought that was the case...but forgot about the missed game.  Something is amiss with Hill...I feel we could go to some different looks to get something out of him....or just use him as a short yardage specialist.  

If you'll note....my screwy phone effed up my post the first time....I had an additional paragraph.  W gotta fix this running game.  Way too one dimensional right now.

[BengalChris]

(09-20-2016, 12:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not dealing with meaningful sample sizes yet, but yes he is. Hill is going at 2.7 YPC, Gio is going at 4.2 YPC. Since when is 1.5 YPC better not much better?

EDIT: This is after being 1.1 YPC better than Hill last year, too. Heck, Gio now has a higher YPC than Hill since Hill came into the NFL.

Hill is the guy that completely out ran Gio in 2014 and he can still do that.

I'm watching a replay of the Skins-Cowboys games at the moment and I see good run blocking, sweeps with two pulling guards and counter plays. I see runs where the OL is getting a push.

With the Bengals I see defenders in the backfield as soon as the hand off occurs. Hill needs a hole to run through. Doesn't need to be big, but it can't be a guy coming through the hole the other direction.

Hill isn't the target. The OL and run blocking scheme are the correct target for what needs to be fixed.

If you wanta talk about "yards per", Hill have higher yards per catch on Sunday. But that doesn't make me want Hill to be the 3rd down RB.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-21-2016, 12:02 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Hill is the guy that completely out ran Gio in 2014 and he can still do that.

I'm watching a replay of the Skins-Cowboys games at the moment and I see good run blocking, sweeps with two pulling guards and counter plays. I see runs where the OL is getting a push.

With the Bengals I see defenders in the backfield as soon as the hand off occurs. Hill needs a hole to run through. Doesn't need to be big, but it can't be a guy coming through the hole the other direction.

Hill isn't the target. The OL and run blocking scheme are the correct target for what needs to be fixed.

If you wanta talk about "yards per", Hill have higher yards per catch on Sunday. But that doesn't make me want Hill to be the 3rd down RB.

That's because Hill is far inferior at picking up blitzes and pass blocking. Also Gio had 100 yards receiving, leading the team in receptions, yards, and TDs.

That's not even slightly the same as you're comparing a highly above average performance with another above average performance receiving, we're talking about an above average performance versus an among-worst-in-the-league-performance running, which is what Hill has been so far this year and last.

[treee]

Once Zampese gets the pass game going he neglects the run. You gotta mix in runs a lot especially if you want those PA seam plays to be open.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

One thing I think we're overlooking here.....Gio is a MUCH shiftier back.  That's highly advantageous behind a porous offensive line.  Ask Barry Sanders.  Also...silly as this may sound....his stature affords him the ability to get "lost in traffic".  Hill is a bigger target.  Something to ponder.....it's kind of like when we had Palmer the statue and didn't address problems with o line.  You can't have a downhill runner if you can't open holes.  That said....Jeremy misses his share of them when they are there.

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-21-2016, 07:38 AM)Wyche Wrote: One thing I think we're overlooking here.....Gio is a MUCH shiftier back.  That's highly advantageous behind a porous offensive line.  Ask Barry Sanders.  Also...silly as this may sound....his stature affords him the ability to get "lost in traffic".  Hill is a bigger target.  Something to ponder.....it's kind of like when we had Palmer the statue and didn't address problems with o line.  You can't have a downhill runner if you can't open holes.  That said....Jeremy misses his share of them when they are there.

I agree with this.  I know this is subjective, but I also think Gio just "looks" better on the field.  He has much more energy and enthusiasm, he is significantly better at picking up the rush.  I've thought ever since last year that Hill has lost the moxie from his rookie year.  Whatever it was, he no longer possesses it.

Yes, the offensive line sucks and are certainly not making his job any easier.  That said, you cannot feed the ball to a guy who consistently runs into the line and goes down at the first sign of contact.  Gio is better running the ball and catching it out of the backfield.  Deciding who spends more time on the field should be an easy decision.

Funny thing... remember all the posts leading up to last season about how Hill was going to average over 5 ypc, lead the league in rushing, and almost single handedly lead the team to a Super Bowl?  Dude fell off fast.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-21-2016, 07:38 AM)Wyche Wrote: One thing I think we're overlooking here.....Gio is a MUCH shiftier back.  That's highly advantageous behind a porous offensive line.  Ask Barry Sanders.  Also...silly as this may sound....his stature affords him the ability to get "lost in traffic".  Hill is a bigger target.  Something to ponder.....it's kind of like when we had Palmer the statue and didn't address problems with o line.  You can't have a downhill runner if you can't open holes.  That said....Jeremy misses his share of them when they are there.

Agree with this. Also, YPC be damned, Gio hasn't looked good running the ball to me either. He's broke a couple 10+ yard gains that really boosted his YPC due to his tiny sample size thus far, but he's getting stuffed at the line a lot as well.

I get that some people aren't sold on Hill (putting it nicely), but I think it looks foolish to use these 2 games as evidence against him when we clearly have a severe issue with the line right now.

All that said, I wouldn't mind making Gio the primary back for awhile, because (a) he's better at making something out of nothing and (b) it could give even more evidence that the line is the main problem.

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-21-2016, 04:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree with this. Also, YPC be damned, Gio hasn't looked good running the ball to me either. He's broke a couple 10+ yard gains that really boosted his YPC due to his tiny sample size thus far, but he's getting stuffed at the line a lot as well.

I get that some people aren't sold on Hill (putting it nicely), but I think it looks foolish to use these 2 games as evidence against him when we clearly have a severe issue with the line right now.

All that said, I wouldn't mind making Gio the primary back for awhile, because (a) he's better at making something out of nothing and (b) it could give even more evidence that the line is the main problem.

To me, Hill's problems go back to last year.  I would love to be proven wrong, but firmly believe 2014 was an anomaly.

The line has been terrible these past two weeks, no question about it.  Agree that Gio is better at "making something out of nothing", but also think he is a major upgrade in the screen game.  If they can't run the ball, some screens are almost as good.

[treee]

What it comes down to, is that there are certain types of run plays that you have to utilize when your offensive line isn't that great. I personally think that our run blocking has just looked exceptionally bad due to two pretty good defensive lines, but if they really are as bad as they've looked we need to address that with how we approach the Run game in general.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-21-2016, 11:04 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I agree with this.  I know this is subjective, but I also think Gio just "looks" better on the field.  He has much more energy and enthusiasm, he is significantly better at picking up the rush.  I've thought ever since last year that Hill has lost the moxie from his rookie year.  Whatever it was, he no longer possesses it.

Yes, the offensive line sucks and are certainly not making his job any easier.  That said, you cannot feed the ball to a guy who consistently runs into the line and goes down at the first sign of contact.  Gio is better running the ball and catching it out of the backfield.  Deciding who spends more time on the field should be an easy decision.

Funny thing... remember all the posts leading up to last season about how Hill was going to average over 5 ypc, lead the league in rushing, and almost single handedly lead the team to a Super Bowl?  Dude fell off fast.

Yes he did, big time.  I'm on board with you on the decision of who to give the lion's share to.

(09-21-2016, 04:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree with this. Also, YPC be damned, Gio hasn't looked good running the ball to me either. He's broke a couple 10+ yard gains that really boosted his YPC due to his tiny sample size thus far, but he's getting stuffed at the line a lot as well.

I get that some people aren't sold on Hill (putting it nicely), but I think it looks foolish to use these 2 games as evidence against him when we clearly have a severe issue with the line right now.

All that said, I wouldn't mind making Gio the primary back for awhile, because (a) he's better at making something out of nothing and (b) it could give even more evidence that the line is the main problem.

Agree 100%.  Also, by contrast, if the line isn't the main issue, he'll show us that too.  Unlike Barry Sanders, Gio is not carry a team on his back good.  He's a very good young ball player, and I love him to death, but he ain't Barry Sanders good.  Who is?

[Shake n Blake]

Twitter (via http://ble.ac/teamstream-) http://teamstre.am/2cnnMQH

Not sure if this link will work properly, but according to James Palmer (NFL network reporter), Dalton said that the run game issues are caused by "missed assignments" and "people not being on the same page". Hmm...

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-21-2016, 11:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Twitter (via http://ble.ac/teamstream-) http://teamstre.am/2cnnMQH

Not sure if this link will work properly, but according to James Palmer (NFL network reporter), Dalton said that the run game issues are caused by "missed assignments" and "people not being on the same page". Hmm...

This to me is a big problem.  With the exception of Cedric, the rest of the line has played together for three years.  That also screams lack of discipline and poor coaching.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-22-2016, 09:32 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: This to me is a big problem.  With the exception of Cedric, the rest of the line has played together for three years.  That also screams lack of discipline and poor coaching.

Yup.

[3wt]

(09-21-2016, 04:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree with this. Also, YPC be damned, Gio hasn't looked good running the ball to me either. He's broke a couple 10+ yard gains that really boosted his YPC due to his tiny sample size thus far, but he's getting stuffed at the line a lot as well.

I get that some people aren't sold on Hill (putting it nicely), but I think it looks foolish to use these 2 games as evidence against him when we clearly have a severe issue with the line right now.

All that said, I wouldn't mind making Gio the primary back for awhile, because (a) he's better at making something out of nothing and (b) it could give even more evidence that the line is the main problem.

I thought Hill looked good in the Jets game.  Gio looks better I think because he is able to hit the hole quicker.  Hill's biggest problem is when he starts jumping around trying to make something of nothing...  which is not a huge problem if there is actually a hole there.

I think they need to use him with a fullback.  He needs someone to help open something up so he doesn't get stuffed at the LOS.  And the best way to use Gio is as a receiver or a third down back.  You get either of these guys moving in space and they're going to do some damage.   I also would like to leave him in the game more than one down at a time and go up tempo.   Between gashing up the middle and play action and keeping the defense from subbing I think we'd get a rhythm going and do some damage.   I'd like to see them script entire sequences for no huddle drives that would wear teams out.

If we could ever get the interior line to start playing as a cohesive unit there's a lot we could do.

I think getting Hill some sustained drives would help him get his moxie back.  But we pull him whether he made yardage or not.

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-22-2016, 03:48 PM)3wt Wrote: I thought Hill looked good in the Jets game.  Gio looks better I think because he is able to hit the hole quicker.  Hill's biggest problem is when he starts jumping around trying to make something of nothing...  which is not a huge problem if there is actually a hole there.

I think they need to use him with a fullback.  He needs someone to help open something up so he doesn't get stuffed at the LOS.  And the best way to use Gio is as a receiver or a third down back.  You get either of these guys moving in space and they're going to do some damage.   I also would like to leave him in the game more than one down at a time and go up tempo.   Between gashing up the middle and play action and keeping the defense from subbing I think we'd get a rhythm going and do some damage.   I'd like to see them script entire sequences for no huddle drives that would wear teams out.

If we could ever get the interior line to start playing as a cohesive unit there's a lot we could do.

I think getting Hill some sustained drives would help him get his moxie back.  But we pull him whether he made yardage or not.

I really don't get how he looked good in the Jets game.  He had nine rushes for 31 yards, and about 12 of them came on one play.  He looked pretty good on the touchdown, but otherwise I thought he looked terrible.

[Shake n Blake]

The run game issue honestly dates back 10 years. From 2006-present, we've finished 20th or worse in YPC in every year except 2014. It's awful right now, but we've never really been good. I've never been a PA fan, but if there's any year where he should be fired, it's this one. His hand-picked project is flopping hard, Dalton is getting killed, and the run game issues trace to the o-line as well.

It's to the point where it could sink our season if it doesn't get better soon.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-22-2016, 06:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The run game issue honestly dates back 10 years. From 2006-present, we've finished 20th or worse in YPC in every year except 2014. It's awful right now, but we've never really been good. I've never been a PA fan, but if there's any year where he should be fired, it's this one. His hand-picked project is flopping hard, Dalton is getting killed, and the run game issues trace to the o-line as well.

It's to the point where it could sink our season if it doesn't get better soon.

Agree.....but he ain't goin ANYWHERE.  Marv was even saddled with him.

[Derrick]

(09-21-2016, 04:33 PM)treee Wrote: What it comes down to, is that there are certain types of run plays that you have to utilize when your offensive line isn't that great. I personally think that our run blocking has just looked exceptionally bad due to two pretty good defensive lines, but if they really are as bad as they've looked we need to address that with how we approach the Run game in general.

This is scary. The OL looks like crap against NY and Pitt -- teams that may or may not make the playoffs. WTH is this line supposed to do against playoff/SB caliber teams? It is a serious problem that can't wait until the bye-week to get fixed. Meanwhile, run a heavy backfield with lead blockers until the OL can figure out how to block...The OC and Line coaches had better order pizza and figure out how to fix this cluster****.

[Derrick]

(09-22-2016, 03:48 PM)3wt Wrote: I thought Hill looked good in the Jets game.  Gio looks better I think because he is able to hit the hole quicker.  Hill's biggest problem is when he starts jumping around trying to make something of nothing...  which is not a huge problem if there is actually a hole there.

I think they need to use him with a fullback.  He needs someone to help open something up so he doesn't get stuffed at the LOS.  And the best way to use Gio is as a receiver or a third down back.  You get either of these guys moving in space and they're going to do some damage.   I also would like to leave him in the game more than one down at a time and go up tempo.   Between gashing up the middle and play action and keeping the defense from subbing I think we'd get a rhythm going and do some damage.   I'd like to see them script entire sequences for no huddle drives that would wear teams out.

If we could ever get the interior line to start playing as a cohesive unit there's a lot we could do.

I think getting Hill some sustained drives would help him get his moxie back.  But we pull him whether he made yardage or not.

Yes to this.

[BengalChris]

(09-21-2016, 11:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Twitter (via http://ble.ac/teamstream-) http://teamstre.am/2cnnMQH

Not sure if this link will work properly, but according to James Palmer (NFL network reporter), Dalton said that the run game issues are caused by "missed assignments" and "people not being on the same page". Hmm...

Exactly! Who can get decent runs when the defense is there at the hand off.