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**McC** · 06-27-2015, 03:42 PM

(06-27-2015, 05:27 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: I think we are loaded with young pitching, like 7 of our top 10 prospects are pitchers. We might have a pretty good SS, still means it can upgraded to a great SS.

If you're talking about upgrading at SS, you're obviously talking about offensively, since Cozart is outstanding defensively. Problem is, those guys don't exactly grow on trees and most teams that have them keep them for that reason.

So, you're probably looking at prospects. The Reds already have one of those in Suarez, who the Reds insisted on getting in the Detroit trade.

fredtoast · 06-27-2015, 04:33 PM

(06-27-2015, 03:42 PM)McC Wrote: If you're talking about upgrading at SS, you're obviously talking about offensively, since Cozart is outstanding defensively. Problem is, those guys don't exactly grow on trees and most teams that have them keep them for that reason.

So, you're probably looking at prospects. The Reds already have one of those in Suarez, who the Reds insisted on getting in the Detroit trade.

Cozart is not even that bad offensively. 2014 was kind of a fluke.

In 2012 he was 6th among all SS in extra base hits and 11th (among those with at least 450 plate appearances) in OPS (Slugging % plus On-base %).

In 2013 he was 9th in extra base hits and 11th in OPS.

When he was injured this year he was having the best season of his career. He was 5th in OPS among all shortstops.

When you consider there are 30 MLB teams those are pretty good offensive numbers for a guy that brings so much on defense.

In 2013 he was

**McC** · 06-27-2015, 04:55 PM

(06-27-2015, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Cozart is not even that bad offensively. 2014 was kind of a fluke.

In 2012 he was 6th among all SS in extra base hits and 11th (among those with at least 450 plate appearances) in OPS (Slugging % plus On-base %).

In 2013 he was 9th in extra base hits and 11th in OPS.

When he was injured this year he was having the best season of his career. He was 5th in OPS among all shortstops.

When you consider there are 30 MLB teams those are pretty good offensive numbers for a guy that brings so much on defense.

In 2013 he was

He was looking much better at the plate and all his numbers were up. Really sux that he got hurt.

**Yojimbo** · 06-28-2015, 11:36 PM

(06-27-2015, 11:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You guys don't seem to realize that great shortstops are hard to find.

When you trade proven talent for prospects you are hoping that prospects turn out great. But the fact is that only a small percentage of them do.

What do you think we would have to give up to get a SS better than Cozart?

Nothing guaranteed, but that's why we trade for prospects instead of major league players. It a crap shoot trying to hit the lottery with cheap talent.

**yellowxdiscipline** · 06-30-2015, 09:22 AM

31 innings in that Mets series we didn't use Chapman........ I can remember two situations in which he would have been perfect. But no Bryan wants to keep him for our 4 run lead last night... Its mind boggling the amount of dumb decisions that keep coming from the manager.

**kevin** · 06-30-2015, 12:30 PM

It is the last day of June and an end to the first 3 months of Reds baseball. 3 months left to go. ........So, where are the Reds ???........St Louis is the only MLB team with 50 wins and on pace for 100 wins. ......The Reds record would not look as bad in any other division, although there is nothing great about 5 games under .500, plus Reds showed in 2014 that they would get clobbered in the AL East.....but all that aside, Reds are only 6 games out of the Wild Card with around 80 games left to play.

Therefore the goal of the Reds should be to cut away at the 6 games out and get back in the Wild Card picture, and this will include getting to and above .500........Have a GREAT All-Star Game and show the first pro baseball team ever city can put on a great All-Star Game. Since 29 other teams will want All-Star games, don't look for the All-Star Game back in Cincinnati until 2045, I will long be dead but some of you may see it. Lets enjoy the 2015 one this year.....

Now if the Reds go backwards and are way out of Wild Card at the near end of July trade deadline, sure, do what is needed...but if the Reds have a good July and get right in the Wild Card picture, Go For It....Nobody is going to catch St Louis and it's not important. All that is needed is to be a Wild Card team and Wild Cards have won the World Series. ....The Reds, as bad as they are, are not out of the playoff picture, but they can forget about catching St Louis with the best record in baseball the first 3 months. ....If the Reds have a good July, they are right in the play-off hunt.

Of course, it's time for the Reds to crap or get off the pot. If they can climb those 6 games and get back in the play-off picture, that should change selling everybody and scrapping the season with instead, the Reds going for a Wild Card spot....IF THEY HAVE A GOOD JULY........GO REDS.....( The Bengals were 3-5 at mid season in 2012 and made the play-offs. Anything is possible for the Reds with around 80 games left, but they have to have a good July before the trade deadline ).

**kevin** · 06-30-2015, 02:59 PM

Now, some might say it would be better to scrap the team now than make the play-offs. I can only say that the history of the Reds is not all that hot. Oh yes, the Reds have 5 World Series wins in their 140 some years of history. The Reds also have a lot of losing seasons in their history, some real bad years and even decades of being just awful. More of that than the decade of the 1970's, I'm afraid. ....So, if the Reds can move from 5 games under .500 to above .500, and if the Reds can move from 6 games out of the Wild Card to right in the hunt, then I say go for it if they have a chance. Keep Chapman and all and go for it, if they close the gap in July, because the history of the Reds is paved with many losing seasons and even losing decades of go cheap, rebuild, go cheap, rebuild.....If Reds climb back into the Wild Card race, go for it, because Reds history needs a few more winning seasons in the win column, and losing doesn't seem to be a path to winning. You can look it up in Reds long history, I don't see where the losing ever leads to winning. Look up all the Reds bad teams over their long history, and you will see seasons of names of cheap youth that never made the grade with old vets on the cheap playing a few last games after other clubs no longer wanted them. It doesn't look like it lead to winning. ....If the Reds close the gap in July, then keep Chapman and go for the play-offs......Half a season to go, 3 more months and only 6 games out of Wild Card. Around 80 games to close that 6 game gap is possible. Bruce is a streak hitter that can get hot and bang out a lot of homers on a streak, often better the 2nd half of season, for example.

Lets see if Reds can have a good July because if they do, Reds will be right in the Wild Card hunt.

**Hoofhearted** · 07-01-2015, 08:26 AM

(06-30-2015, 12:30 PM)kevin Wrote: Now if the Reds go backwards and are way out of Wild Card at the near end of July trade deadline, sure, do what is needed...but if the Reds have a good July and get right in the Wild Card picture, Go For It....Nobody is going to catch St Louis and it's not important. All that is needed is to be a Wild Card team and Wild Cards have won the World Series. ....The Reds, as bad as they are, are not out of the playoff picture, but they can forget about catching St Louis with the best record in baseball the first 3 months. ....If the Reds have a good July, they are right in the play-off hunt.

I am starting to think they hang onto Cueto and tag him this offseason before shipping him out to another team. I think this would be smart. You would get a better value as teams will have his rights for the full year, and same team would get a comp pick if he decides to leave after that. I am not really sure other teams would give what we really need for a half years rights with no comp pick for them.

**kevin** · 07-04-2015, 08:02 PM

JULY 4th....IF the Reds could win the next 3 games, they would only be 3 games under .500 after 81 games with 81 games left to play.....Right now they are 6 under, but IF they could win the next 3....IF

**Yojimbo** · 07-04-2015, 09:42 PM

(07-04-2015, 08:02 PM)kevin Wrote: JULY 4th....IF the Reds could win the next 3 games, they would only be 3 games under .500 after 81 games with 81 games left to play.....Right now they are 6 under, but IF they could win the next 3....IF

Yeah that game last night was impressive against the last place Brewers...

**Goalpost** · 07-05-2015, 11:14 AM

After yesterday, the Reds only have a 3 game lead on the Brewers.

**kevin** · 07-05-2015, 12:10 PM

Well, I wasn't wrong that there are still 83 games left to play, as of today, Sunday July 5th. The math says that is more than enough games to get back in the wild card hunt. ......but, the problem is the team itself......forget the math, the Reds just got clocked by the last place Brewers over the 4th of July weekend and at home in Cincinnati. Manager Price said the game was so bad that he was glad at least there were fireworks after the game so the fans would at least have something to enjoy. Manager Price is also worried about all the innings these young pitchers up from Louisville are being forced to pitch, meaning some or most have been called up to the majors to soon. These pitchers are sure getting clobbered like they belong still in Louisville. Manager Price also says in regards to why teams win or lose, " I don't know why, it's a crapshoot ". .....So I can forget the 83 games left and the math saying it's possible. Getting clobbered by the last place Brewers over the 4th weekend in Cincy means last place Brewers are better than Reds are, so Reds heading more to last than play-offs. As one Reds pitcher years ago said in the paper, " I Stink ", and the Reds of 2015 could say the same thing.

The good news is the Reds host the All-Star Game and Bengals Preseason Football a few weeks after that, as the Reds probably will sell players as they sink into last place in the NL Central. I can forget the 83 games left, and the way the Reds are playing, I wish it was 3 games left. Price has done nothing to earn a return in 2016. Changes are coming. Just bring on the All-Star Game and the Bengals.

fredtoast · 07-05-2015, 07:46 PM

This series with the Brewer was about as ugly as it gets. Outscored at home 25-5 in 3 games by one of the worst teams in the league.

Votto is hitting .132 over his last 11 games (5-38). His batting average has dropped from.300 to .273. He also has not had an extra base hit since June 14 (18 games). His slugging percentage has dropped from among the league leaders at .557 to .478 since then.

***jason*** · 07-05-2015, 11:03 PM

(07-05-2015, 07:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This series with the Brewer was about as ugly as it gets. Outscored at home 25-5 in 3 games by one of the worst teams in the league.

Votto is hitting .132 over his last 11 games (5-38). His batting average has dropped from.300 to .273. He also has not had an extra base hit since June 14 (18 games). His slugging percentage has dropped from among the league leaders at .557 to .478 since then.

The Brewers are in the midst of an 8 game winning streak Ninja

I made the trip down to the game today... They were awful.

**McC** · 07-06-2015, 07:31 AM

(07-05-2015, 11:03 PM)jason Wrote: The Brewers are in the midst of an 8 game winning streak

I made the trip down to the game today... They were awful.

This should be the final nails in the coffin for this bunch and answer the question once and for all that it's time to tear it down.

**Hoofhearted** · 07-06-2015, 08:03 AM

(07-06-2015, 07:31 AM)McC Wrote: This should be the final nails in the coffin for this bunch and answer the question once and for all that it's time to tear it down.

It was utterly mind boggling how they have never seen this pitcher before, and what does the first two batters do? One pitch outs. Unacceptable for two veteran players. The bad thing is that I doubt that they do a full blown rebuild with this team. I see them trading the pieces they cant afford and keep the rest. Bang Head

**McC** · 07-06-2015, 04:35 PM

(07-06-2015, 08:03 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: It was utterly mind boggling how they have never seen this pitcher before, and what does the first two batters do? One pitch outs. Unacceptable for two veteran players. The bad thing is that I doubt that they do a full blown rebuild with this team. I see them trading the pieces they cant afford and keep the rest.

Yep. That's exactly what they'll do. And the beat goes on.

fredtoast · 07-06-2015, 07:10 PM

(07-06-2015, 08:03 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: It was utterly mind boggling how they have never seen this pitcher before, and what does the first two batters do? One pitch outs. Unacceptable for two veteran players. The bad thing is that I doubt that they do a full blown rebuild with this team. I see them trading the pieces they cant afford and keep the rest.

(07-06-2015, 04:35 PM)McC Wrote: Yep. That's exactly what they'll do. And the beat goes on.

It would be crazy to trade away all the good players we have who are in their prime.

Prospects don't all become good players. Some of them do not even become decent players. That is why you have to keep as many of the good players as you can who have already proven they can play in the majors.

**BengalFanInNJ** · 07-06-2015, 07:22 PM

On a side note, any of you guys going to the All-Star Game?

**McC** · 07-07-2015, 05:48 AM

(07-06-2015, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It would be crazy to trade away all the good players we have who are in their prime.

Prospects don't all become good players. Some of them do not even become decent players. That is why you have to keep as many of the good players as you can who have already proven they can play in the majors.

Guess what, Fred. The jury is in. This is not a winning core. Keeping them around won't change that.

But never fear. They ain't going anywhere anyway.

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