Coyle's secondary...back to the days of Bresh?

[xxlt]

(09-27-2016, 11:44 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I used to vomit every time I saw that assbag Breshnahan plead with his team to "not give up the big play", only to get nickel and dimed to 30-plus points every week.  

Then Zimmer came along, and it was "contest every pass".  The defense soared.  They played aggressive.  They beat the shit out of people.  Now, it is right back to that weak cushion crap.

Coyle without Zimmer is like Marv without Hue...boring and conservative.  This team has as much life as a corpse in the non-zombie era.  

Why on earth would you continue to use first round picks on DBs when they are treated like 7th round scrubs.  

Start contesting every pass attempt and wake this team up from its slumber.  It is making me sick to watch this once great defense get torched by has-beens and rookies.

That's gold Jerry, gold!

[PDub80]

When the offense cannot sustain drives by moving the ball field position is lost. When field position is lost the defense's job becomes twice as hard with nearly only half a field to work with.

Nothing is wrong with the defense and Guenther is an outstanding coach. I believe that Hue was able to do what he wanted and now that he's gone Zampese is handcuffed by Jim Tressel....... ERRRRRRR Marvin Lewis and has very little leeway in being aggressive.

A few years ago (Carson's 2nd to last) I went to a private practice for some WLW sponsors. Marvin addressed us and quoted Woody Hayes with the decades old "3 things happen when you pass and 2 of them are bad". Marvin is not suited for offensive input in today's NFL... Period. His old philosophy is killing a defense that's dealing with modern rules and plans of attack. Hue was different and allowed to do great things. He's gone... Marvin's back holding the leash.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-28-2016, 03:42 PM)bengalbiff Wrote: They do play off  but they have been since Hall and Joseph were here and in their prime.  Terrance Newman played off, Adam Jones plays off, Dre was supposed to be a press corner but he too has been playing off.  They do press some but it's not really been an issue until this season.  Though that could change.  It has affected individual games in the past but overall the defense has played well.  It's also worth noting that it seems to be common practice to have corners playing off.  You see it every week and the offense has plays to target corners in off coverage.
I know ill probably get creamed for saying it but Adam Jones is getting old.  He was picked on by Denver, but so was Dennard to some extent.  Having first round corners not play for whatever reason until their second and third seasons has killed us.  Dennard isn't where he should be.  Kirkpatrick was definitely affected by his early injuries etc.  Now Jackson misses his rookie year.  It's maddening.

Agreed. Not sure what some are thinking, but our corners have always played off quite a bit and rarely press. We give up short throws and rely on sound tackling from our DBs, DEs and OLBs to limit YAC on short stuff. It's been that way for many years now, like you said.

[bengalguy71]

(09-28-2016, 03:11 PM)J24 Wrote: I am not a huge fan of Gunther myself but I think we need to get off his back a little bit. First off the secondary was awesome the prior two weeks(ironically when we were pressing) and overall the defense was fine. Secondly the Broncos are a run first team so the game plan I bet was to stop the run first(which they did) and not allow the deep ball which they did for the most part. It's like in Basketball when a guy that can't shoot just starts making 3s it just happens. Sometimes the other team just beats you.

J24, there you go talking logical again.  Do all the Guenther haters know that he and Zimmer designed this defense?  He was on the other end of Zimmer's headset?  Zimmer was pissed off when Guenther didn't go with him to Minnesota??

[Derrick]

(09-28-2016, 09:29 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That might be the best question of the season.  The best answer I can come up with is Kevin Coyle is hyper-afraid of giving up the deep ball and he's willing to give up the middle of the field to do it.  When I see a defensive lineman drop into coverage it drives me nuts and when linebackers cover faster receivers I want to tear what's left of my hair out.  Remember Scotty's advice on Star Trek?  "The right tool for the right job!"

This is what I'm talkin' about!!! What kind of high school crap is that?  The Bengals don't have the players for that kind of scheme. If Marvy wants to continue using it, he will suffer even more losses. They could draft those kind of players, but that would take years to get good results. Meanwhile, someone needs to kick ass in the coaches room!!! Oh wait, there isn't anyone.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-28-2016, 09:29 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That might be the best question of the season.  The best answer I can come up with is Kevin Coyle is hyper-afraid of giving up the deep ball and he's willing to give up the middle of the field to do it.  When I see a defensive lineman drop into coverage it drives me nuts and when linebackers cover faster receivers I want to tear what's left of my hair out.  Remember Scotty's advice on Star Trek?  "The right tool for the right job!"

Lapham was on the radio and was discussing this subject and he pointed at Shawn Williams as the culprit in each of these instances.  I can't help but wonder if right now Derron Smith is a better option when having the safety playing center field.  Williams may be more physical, but Smith looks better in coverage and has better ball skills.  

My guess is they will live and die with Williams and just hope he improves, but Lap pointed out scores in the Jets game, the pitt game, and the broncos game that were on Williams.  That isn't a positive trend.  I don't know if he was at fault with the Dolphins game.  

[McC]

(10-01-2016, 09:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Lapham was on the radio and was discussing this subject and he pointed at Shawn Williams as the culprit in each of these instances.  I can't help but wonder if right now Derron Smith is a better option when having the safety playing center field.  Williams may be more physical, but Smith looks better in coverage and has better ball skills.  

My guess is they will live and die with Williams and just hope he improves, but Lap pointed out scores in the Jets game, the pitt game, and the broncos game that were on Williams.  That isn't a positive trend.  I don't know if he was at fault with the Dolphins game.  

Think back to last year.  How often did Iloka blow coverage?  That seems telling. 

This year figured to have a learning curve.  But I have kinda thought if Smith got his chance, he might really run with it.  Smith has play maker in him, I believe.  I hope Williams improves but if he doesn't I hope the leash isn't long on him.  At least we seem to have an option if we need it. 

Also, how spoiled have we been with Reggie back there?

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(10-01-2016, 09:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  I don't know if he was at fault with the Dolphins game.  

It sure looked like he was. There was nobody back there. That play pissed me off so bad.

I will say, though, that I think Williams will be fine. Even the best give up big plays. Remember when Pacman gave up the bomb in Houston?

Stick with him until we start losing. Bench him if he starts to be the reason we lose more than we win.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-01-2016, 08:36 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: It sure looked like he was. There was nobody back there. That play pissed me off so bad.

I will say, though, that I think Williams will be fine. Even the best give up big plays. Remember when Pacman gave up the bomb in Houston?

Stick with him until we start losing. Bench him if he starts to be the reason we lose more than we win.

Simms broke the play down during the broadcast and said it was on Iloka.

He bit on a comeback that was already covered, letting Stills blow right by him.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2016, 09:55 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Under Marvin this team has rarely shown any ability on offense or defense to have any ability for "in game adjustments" . People talk about halftime adjustments, in 1973 when they had a 40 play - playbook that was fine. In today's world you have to have in series adjustments !

Over the last few seasons the Bengals have consistently been among the best teams at making halftime adjustments on offense

Points scored in 3rd quarter
'15....10th
'14....11th
'13.... 7th




 

[James Brooks]

(09-28-2016, 04:05 AM)bengaltruth Wrote: Guenthers quarterback on the D is back in Burfict. Zimmer according to reports at the time tried his best to get Guenther to defect to Minnesota when he was hired. I met Guenther (he is a very impressive individual shook all my kids hands) and although it was after the season he talked solid football for at least 5 minutes, he is passionate and he is a natural teacher. I for one am hoping he will never get a HC job unless its for us! Losing Zimmer was bad but if we lose Guenther, its onto Coyle. Guenther>Coyle IMO

If you recall, our defense was listless until Taz returned last year after rehabbing his knee. He makes a huge difference to this defense.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Never been a fan of Kirkpatrick I think he gives up too many plays at crucial times. But the real problem is Shawn Williams. He is not Reggie Nelson and plays more like old number #26. Williams gives up a touchdown every game so far and just seems lost out in the field. Letting Nelson go and filling in with Williams was a huge mistake.

[ah5]

(10-03-2016, 02:23 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Never been a fan of Kirkpatrick I think he gives up too many plays at crucial times.  But the real problem is Shawn Williams.    He is not Reggie Nelson and plays more like old number #26.  Williams gives up a touchdown every game so far and just seems lost out in the field.    Letting Nelson go and filling in with Williams  was a huge mistake.

I think you may be wrong about DreK,  Nelson had a habit of hanging him out to dry.... I love Nelson but he loves cutting off routes too much.  I wish Shaw started in place of Williams, this guy is going to be great in a couple years regardless what position he plays.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-04-2016, 04:54 AM)ah5 Wrote: I think you may be wrong about DreK,  Nelson had a habit of hanging him out to dry.... I love Nelson but he loves cutting off routes too much.  I wish Shaw started in place of Williams, this guy is going to be great in a couple years regardless what position he plays.

I think we have an excellent nickel CB in Shaw.  Dude was an absolute steal.  I can't help but think Williams is a bigger guy and more physical, but he has been missing tackles and assignments at an alarming rate for a guy that has been with the team for some time now.  

Derron Smith looked very good in the preseason and he may not lay a guy out with the same force as Williams (no flags?) but he is a ballhawk in the secondary.  I am starting to feel the old "we play the guy we pay".  Smith deserves a chance,  at least to push Williams if nothing else.