Last 3 Years of 1st and 2nd rounders

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 07:52 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That's an important list -- but none of these players were brought to Cincinnati under Paul Guenther or Ken Zampese with the possible exception of Josh Shaw.  These are all players "coached up" by Mike Zimmer, Jay Gruden, or Hue Jackson.  Your point is well-taken though because many of these players, indeed, some of the best talent on the Cincinnati roster, were taken well past the first and second rounds.

Bingo.  Coaches who are gone.

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 09:07 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's not spin.....sometimes position groups have a stronger presence in the draft and others fall....it's pretty common.  I mean, I've linked you his scouting reports numerous times, and he was an All American.....you want to see them again, or are you content to quit your charade now?

Charade?

Why have you not listed all the sites who had Boling ranked as a first or second round level player?


I know why.

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 07:52 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That's an important list -- but none of these players were brought to Cincinnati under Paul Guenther or Ken Zampese with the possible exception of Josh Shaw.  These are all players "coached up" by Mike Zimmer, Jay Gruden, or Hue Jackson.  Your point is well-taken though because many of these players, indeed, some of the best talent on the Cincinnati roster, were taken well past the first and second rounds.

And none of them were good their first season except Atkins and Burfict.

Too early to judge the guys drafted in the last two seasons.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 09:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Charade?

Why have you not listed all the sites who had Boling ranked as a first or second round level player?


I know why.

He was listed as a top GUARD prospect in that draft.....by NFL Scouts and scouting sites alike.  Would you like to see them again?

[WeezyBengal]

(10-17-2016, 06:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So we can't draft and we don't sign any good free agents......

Yet the reason our coaches are so bad is because they can't win with "one of the most talented rosters in the league"?

Anyone see a problem with this argument?

In my opinion, drafting, developing, and winning games is a coaches job. All which Marvin Lewis has failed at this year. 

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 09:44 AM)Wyche Wrote: He was listed as a top GUARD prospect in that draft.....by NFL Scouts and scouting sites alike.  Would you like to see them again?

I want to see where he is rated as a first or second round pick.  You know like where all the top guards are drafted every year.

He was a 4th round talent.  That is why he was drafted there.  Doesn't matter if '11 was a bad year for guards coming out of college.  If Boling was a highly rated talent then he would not have lasted until the 6th round.

So, yes, show me all those links again.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 09:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I want to see where he is rated as a first or second round pick.  You know like where all the top guards are drafted every year.

He was a 4th round talent.  That is why he was drafted there.  Doesn't matter if '11 was a bad year for guards coming out of college.  If Boling was a highly rated talent then he would not have lasted until the 6th round.

So, yes, show me all those links again.

*AHEM*

http://www.sbnation.com/2011/4/8/2096982/clint-boling-nfl-draft-scouting-report

"Final word: Boling looks to be a solid 2nd round selection and should be able to contribute at guard from day one.  He is a sound technician with the strength and quickness to both effectively pass and run block.  Ideally, Boling would add some more bulk to his frame but he possesses to proper technique to overcome.  Any team looking to improve their guard play would benefit from adding Boling to the mix."


http://fftoolbox.scout.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2567

"and a second-round selection is not out of the question if he continues to impress at the NFL Combine."


http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2010/05/clint-boling-scouting-report.html



"Projection: 2nd-3rd Round"

.....even the Pats had him pegged as a potential 2nd rounder.  As I read up on him, it appears his status as a "tweener" had more to do with his eventual draft position than anything else.

You concede now (as this is probably the third or fourth time you've seen these), or are you thirsty for more?

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 11:02 AM)Wyche Wrote: *AHEM*

http://www.sbnation.com/2011/4/8/2096982/clint-boling-nfl-draft-scouting-report

"Final word: Boling looks to be a solid 2nd round selection and should be able to contribute at guard from day one.  He is a sound technician with the strength and quickness to both effectively pass and run block.  Ideally, Boling would add some more bulk to his frame but he possesses to proper technique to overcome.  Any team looking to improve their guard play would benefit from adding Boling to the mix."


http://fftoolbox.scout.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2567

"and a second-round selection is not out of the question if he continues to impress at the NFL Combine."


http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2010/05/clint-boling-scouting-report.html



"Projection: 2nd-3rd Round"

.....even the Pats had him pegged as a potential 2nd rounder.  As I read up on him, it appears his status as a "tweener" had more to do with his eventual draft position than anything else.

You concede now (as this is probably the third or fourth time you've seen these), or are you thirsty for more?

You have two random sites on your side.

I have 32 NFL teams on my side.

You are the one who should concede.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You have two random sites on your side.

I have 32 NFL teams on my side.

You are the one who should concede.

There are three.    They are scouting reports.  This was the whole discussion.....you said no one considered him a "top rounder".
http://www.nfldraft101.com/draft/profiles/player/164763/Clint_Boling.jsp
"I’ve seen Boling mocked as early as Round 2 and as late as Round 4, "


https://phinphanatic.com/2011/04/21/draft-spotlight-og-clint-boling/



.....there are more that would not allow me access due to being premium services....

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 11:22 AM)Wyche Wrote: There are three.    They are scouting reports.  This was the whole discussion.....you said no one considered him a "top rounder".
http://www.nfldraft101.com/draft/profiles/player/164763/Clint_Boling.jsp
"I’ve seen Boling mocked as early as Round 2 and as late as Round 4, "


https://phinphanatic.com/2011/04/21/draft-spotlight-og-clint-boling/



.....there are more that would not allow me access due to being premium services....

And I still have 32 NFL teams on my side.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 11:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I still have 32 NFL teams on my side.

Just keep moving the goalposts freddy.....

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 11:27 AM)Wyche Wrote: Just keep moving the goalposts freddy.....

So you are claiming that the rankings of the "experts" are what counts and that NFL teams don't know what they are doing?

Keep grasping for straws.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 11:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are claiming that the rankings of the "experts" are what counts and that NFL teams don't know what they are doing?

Keep grasping for straws.

We were talking about PROJECTIONS....not results.  I even mentioned he slipped, and gave reasons as to why that may have occurred.

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 11:49 AM)Wyche Wrote: We were talking about PROJECTIONS....not results.  I even mentioned he slipped, and gave reasons as to why that may have occurred.

He slipped for one reason only.  No NFL team thought he was worth taking in the top 3 rounds.

[*ochocincos*]

NFL Draft Scout had Boling rated as a 3-4 round player, 6th highest OG in the 2011 draft. Also says highest expected round drafted could be 2, but likely 3-4.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68658&draftyear=2011&genpos=og

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 12:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: NFL Draft Scout had Boling rated as a 3-4 round player, 6th highest OG in the 2011 draft. Also says highest expected round drafted could be 2, but likely 3-4.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68658&draftyear=2011&genpos=og

Yeah....the most popular rounds I saw for him were 2nd or 3rd.  He slipped to 4th.  "Coaching up" the 6th highest ranked prospect at a position doesn't spin as easily as just saying he was a 4th rounder.....I was going to link this site as well, but did not originally see where the projection was, until I linked it again from your post.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2016, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He slipped for one reason only.  No NFL team thought he was worth taking in the top 3 rounds.

There can be other reasons. How many teams are looking for Guards each year. Fit factors in sometimes. Guards and Centers aren't sexy picks to sell a fanbase on.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 02:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There can be other reasons. How many teams are looking for Guards each year. Fit factors in sometimes. Guards and Centers aren't sexy picks to sell a fanbase on.

Exactly, and as I said.....his status as a "tweener" kinda hurt his stock too.  Some teams had him pegged for a tackle, others a guard.  Bottom line, he wasn't some scrub coming in that had to be taught the game in order to make a player out of him.

[Essex Johnson]

(10-17-2016, 02:39 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: "They don't need to draft players who need to contribute quickly. The Bengals can draft BPA, that's what the good teams do. The Bengals are the deepest team in the league."  -Everyone who kept pshaw-ing at the utter lack of production from the Bengals drafts the last handful of years whenever I pointed out that the Bengals hadn't been drafting very well for awhile now.

After the Gio pick in the beginning of the 2nd round of 2013, it's been pretty barren.

Not drafting any good players for 3 3/4th drafts, refusing to use FA, and then losing Nelson/Jones this offseason finally caught up with the Bengals.

For the amount of money we paid Lafell over what we Jones would have cost I do see much difference when you compare the first six games of Lafell being a #2 target and Jones being a #1 target.. not much differences... Lafell has 23 catches on 37 targets and 3 TDs.. Marvin has 29 catches on 47 targets and 4 TDS.. Jones has a clear edge in YPC but again for the money difference and Lafell being a true #2... looks like to me the Bengals have gotten the better of the deal so far.

As for Nelson, i agree it hurts losing him but again we can;t sign everyone but his impact is missed

[Derrick]

(10-17-2016, 08:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You pretty much nailed it.  Ogbuehi is a player that I had seen struggle when he transitioned in college from one side of the line to the other.  Then, he had an injury.  I was more than a little surprised that they would take him in Round 1 (especially with the WRs and DEs available that were of need).  I remember seeing Whit struggle mightily early in his career, but I can't help but wonder if Ogbuehi has trouble adding size and strength.  If anything, after his very short rookie season, he looks thinner???  And he sure doesn't seem to be stronger.

Dennard baffles me as well.  He could be struggling due to a lack of playing time, but shouldn't he at least be a bit more assignment-safe by now?  Williams, too.  I think I underestimated just how much Vance Joseph meant to this secondary.  This defense is a bottom tier group through 6 games, and I think the scheme and coaching has a lot to do with it. 

At the root of all the problems for the defense is a lack of pass rush from the front four.  They will rarely blitz, and if the front four don't create any pressure (which is quite often), this secondary gets picked apart.  I think a lack of pass rush from MJ is a big part of the problem.  Dunlap is having at least a solid year, but Geno and MJ are disappointments.  That leads to a lot of issues on the back of the defense.  Billings could have been a big plus here, ditto Hardison.  

Maybe there is no blitz because they know these LBs can't cover the short-middle of the field. Marvy like big, bulky LBs, but they are not well suited to covering TEs and RBs over the middle. They need to draft quick, strong DEs who can get to the QB.