A few questions to ponder

[Interceptor]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. Minimum requirements: "Get" to the playoffs. No need to try harder than that since your job isn't on the line. This type of attitude trickles down from the top.

2. No. Not with this coaching staff. I mean, are they playing to his strengths or are they trying to mold him into something he's not?

3. See #2. Other teams have done more with less at QB. Marv should know.

2012 Playoffs: Done in by Adrian Foster's ground game. Hint, hint?
2013 Playoffs: See 2012 Playoffs. Bengals defense scored more than their own offense. Come on, man….
2014 Playoffs: Abandoned a ground game that pressed on the weakness of SD. Defense got tired of trying to hold and in the end just gave up because they see the offense was going nowhere by shooting themselves in the foot with critical mistakes (INTs/FUMs). Come on, man…..
2015 Playoffs: Absolutely great game planning by the Colts. Made easy because we keep doing the same playoff plays and tendencies that don't work.

That is what I see.

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 09:25 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: A CB Dalton thread?

How cutting edge!

I would think that by now you would be numb to all of the butthurt you seem to endure over your fandom of #14?



I'm (mostly) kidding.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1.)  I don't know anyone that says it is 100% Marvin's fault.  It is a "shared guilt" across many individuals that led to the four playoff losses. 

2.) I believe Dalton was improving each year, and last year was a "speedbump"....an anomaly.  His completion % actually increased despite being down in almost every other category.  A new offense, the loss of many of his weapons (one before the season started and another after just one half of game #1), losing more weapons as they went along, and playing a first place schedule led to this decline.  However, without the missed 32 yd FG against the Panthers, the team still would have won 11 games.  Yes, I think he is improving. 

3.) I am confident that Andy's trials and tribulations will help mold him in to being a Super Bowl winning QB.  He has overcome a great deal already and I think if the Bengals are able to keep their guys healthy that this could be the year they make that Super Bowl run.  It will take all three phases of the game performing their best, and the coaches must have all guys fresh and breathing fire heading in to the playoffs.  Using guys like Sims, Hardison, Clarke, Hunt, Burkhead, Kroft, Alford, and Hewitt, in addition to the regular starters will get these guys game experience and keep everyone healthier heading down the stretch.  Use them all.  Don't wear out Dunlap and MJ just because they are capable of staying on the field, but give them rest so they are more effective in the big spots.  This has been the kryptonite of this team for years, IMHO.  Stop whipping the same horse to the finish line of the regular season only to have it pass out before the real race even starts. 

[fredtoast]

(07-04-2015, 04:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Fred....

Your statements are misleading.

- AD is 2-6 against the Steelers. To name them as a team he's "beaten" is misleading as he has been beaten like a drum by Pittsburgh more often than not.
- AD is 1-1 against NE and in the game he "won" he had 200 yards and an INT. He did complete a high %, so... in the case they play NE when it counts I'll hope he can pull that miracle off again.
- He's 1-1 against Andrew Luck's Colts, 0-1 when it counts. AD's rookie year the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.
- He's 4-4 against the Ravens.
- He's beaten the Packers the 1 time they played. AD was pretty good there.

There is absolutely nothing misleading about my statement.  The fact that Dalton has shown he can be good enough to beat the top teams proves that he has the ability to win playoff games.  Peyton Manning has a losing record against the Patriots, but he has also beaten them multiple times in the playoffs.

Show me the QB you want us to sign who will go undefeated against every top team in the league, and I'll agree that we should get him to replace Dalton.

[PDub80]

(07-05-2015, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There is absolutely nothing misleading about my statement.  The fact that Dalton has shown he can be good enough to beat the top teams proves that he has the ability to win playoff games.  Peyton Manning has a losing record against the Patriots, but he has also beaten them multiple times in the playoffs.

Show me the QB you want us to sign who will go undefeated against every top team in the league, and I'll agree that we should get him to replace Dalton.

Beating a top team like the Steelers 2 times out of 8 tries in the REGULAR SEASON correlates to ZIP ZERO ZILCH in showing anything in the playoffs or showing a trend to figuring them out. Proof is that AD is 0-4 in the playoffs and has losing record against the best teams in the league.

So he wins a game every now an then against a top team. What's the saying? Even a blind squirrel is bound to find a nut every once in a while. Not really anything a championship team is going to hang their hat on with confidence.

It's sad, really, that as a fan base some of us are like... "Hey, if the stars align then maybe, possibly, could, try to, luckily... once in a blue moon happen." It's pathetic to have that kind of hope. The blind faith against all reasonable logic and history reminds me of religious zealot behavior.

Peyton Manning is 5-11 all time against NE. 2-2 in the playoffs. His track record against good/great teams is excellent and to compare that one example against one team to Andy Dalton's career is insulting to Manning, one of the top QBs to ever play, and delusional.

Nobody is asking for Andy or anyone else to go undefeated against anyone. I don't understand the point of the question other than to deflect logic and take all reasonable expectation of success out of the discussion. Which appears to be the last thread of hope for AD zealots.

[fredtoast]

(07-04-2015, 04:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Here is a list of Superbowl QBs.  http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97
AD is better than Rex Grossman, similar to Brad Johnson (but without the arm), Capernick is up and down (but I would take him over AD). He's not even on is close to a Jake Delhomme, to be honest.

So you are admitting that dalton is better tyhan some Super Bowl QBs yet you still say it is impossible for him to make it to a Super Bowl?  What kind of logic is that?

In '07 when Eli won his first Super Bowl his career numbers looked like this.  .  77 tds.  .  64 ints.  .  .  73.2 rating

Flacco's career passer rating was only 86.0 when he won a Super Bowl in 2012.

And you claim that Dalton is "not even close to Jake Delhomme, to be honest".  Well I'll be honest and point out that when Delhomme went to the Super Bowl in '03 his career numbers were.  .  .  22 tds.  .  21 ints.  .  .  78.7 rating.

Now, you might want to come back and say that all these guys raised their games in the playoffs, but the fact is that none of them had ever done it before they actually did it and made it to the Super Bowl. Flacco's playoff passer rating was 70.4 before 2012 and he was only throwing for 170.2 yards per game.  Eli's postseason passer rating was 53.4 with 137.5 yards per game before '07, and Delhomme had never even been to the playoffs. 

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 12:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: So, he wins a game every now an then against a top team. What's the saying? Even a blind squirrel is bound to find a nut every once in a while. Not really anything a championship team is going to hang their hat on with confidence.

Over the last two seasons dalton has a WINNING RECORD against teams with a winning record. 

Your logic fails.  It isn't some random event when we beat a good team.  Over the last two years it has happened more often than not.

And how is it that the fact Dalton has only won .250 of his games against the Stealers proves he can never beat any good teams, but the fact that Manning has only won .313 of his games against the Patriots is meaningless?  How can you expect to be taken seriously with arguments like this?  How about the fact that Manning started his career 2-9 against the Patriots.  Wouldn't your logic PROVE that it was impossible for him to beat the Patriots in a playoff game?

And finally, stop acting like I can not compare anything Dalton does with the best QBs in the league when you have already done that with your list of Super Bowl QBs.  How are we supposed to discuss an in issue with out making comparisons to other QBs?

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 12:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Nobody is asking for Andy or anyone else to go undefeated against anyone. I don't understand the point of the question other than to deflect logic and take all reasonable expectation of success out of the discussion. Which appears to be the last thread of hope for AD zealots.

Well let me explain it to you using smaller words.  

I showed that Dalton had beaten a lot of good teams.  You said that did not matter because at times he had also lost to these teams.  So it appears that your argument is that the only way to show he can beat good teams is if he never loses to any of them.

[PDub80]

(07-05-2015, 12:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are admitting that dalton is better tyhan some Super Bowl QBs yet you still say it is impossible for him to make it to a Super Bowl?  What kind of logic is that.

In '07 when Eli won his first Super Bowl his career numbers looked like this.  .  77 tds.  .  64 ints.  .  .  73.2 rating

Flacco's career passer rating was only 86.0 when he won a Super Bowl in 2012.

And you claim that Dalton is "not even close to Jake Delhomme, to be honest".  Well I'll be honest and point out that when Delhomme went to the Super Bowl in '03 his career numbers were.  .  .  22 tds.  .  21 ints.  .  .  78.7 rating.

Now, you might want to come back and say that all these guys raised their games in the playoffs, but the fact is that none of them had ever done it before they actually did it and made it to the Super Bowl. Flacco's playoff passer rating was 70.4 before 2012 and he was only throwing for 170.2 yards per game.  Eli's postseason passer rating was 53.4 with 137.5 yards per game before '07, and Delhomme had never even been to the playoffs. 

Ok, now these points all make sense and it's why AD is such a polarizing figure. In no way, shape, or form do I think AD couldn't do it or is completely incapable. Just like I said Marvin could reinvent himself and get better - even though he deserved to be fired after 2010. Marvin took a long time to figure it out, but he's a really good coach at this point. 

With AD, until he does it, I will be less than enthusiastic on the chances. His problems are mental. Physically, he can do it, but the mental hurdles are what scares me when it comes to enthusiasm of his chances. His inconsistency is maddening and it is the biggest factor holding the team back from being great instead of good.

Delhomme's career arc is better than AD's when you look at his ceiling he hit. That was my point. If the guy can play lights out then I would take that on a gamble that he won't be really crappy, either. DOes that make sense what I was illustrating with the Delhomme point?

Eli Manning played big in big games and can elevate his play from being bad to outstanding. THAT is what AD needs to do - and has had opportunity to do, but hasn't. Same with a lot of the non-elite guys who have made it to the Superbowl. It is frustrating to watch AD have the tools to elevate his play 3 times and go the opposite direction. The game against the Colts I will absolutely hold against no one.

The above is why McCarron has me curious. It's not a bigger arm or mobility that's needed. It's mindset. We'll see how it shakes out.

[PDub80]

(07-05-2015, 12:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well let me explain it to you using smaller words.  

I showed that Dalton had beaten a lot of good teams.  You said that did not matter because at times he had also lost to these teams.  So it appears that your argument is that the only way to show he can beat good teams is if he never loses to any of them.

No, my counter point to you was that beating them once or twice when losing to them more than that does not show a positive trend or allow for a positive prognosis. unless it is recent and on an uptick. I also provided the record against another common foe and for the other teams you mentioned and they weren't anything to draw positive conclusions from.

A good example would be if he had lost to the Steelers 6 times in a row, but beaten them the last 2 straight and played really well. I think each situation and timing of these performances merits it's own micro look before putting it into a macro conclusion.

A real life encouraging example was how well the team played (AD included) in the Monday night game against the Broncos. That was a great thing to see from a development standpoint.

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 12:50 PM)PDub80 Wrote: No, my counter point to you was that beating them once or twice when losing to them more than that does not show a positive trend or allow for a positive prognosis. unless it is recent and on an uptick. I also provided the record against another common foe and for the other teams you mentioned.

A good example would be if he had lost to the Steelers 6 times in a row, but beaten them the last 2 straight and played really well. I think each situation and timing of these performances merits it's own micro look before putting it into a macro conclusion.

Then what about the fact that over the last two seasons the bengals have a winning record (8-6) against teams with winning records?

[PDub80]

(07-05-2015, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last two seasons dalton has a WINNING RECORD against teams with a winning record. 

Your logic fails.  It isn't some random event when we beat a good team.  Over the last two years it has happened more often than not.

And how is it that the fact Dalton has only won .250 of his games against the Stealers proves he can never beat any good teams, but the fact that Manning has only won .313 of his games against the Patriots is meaningless?  How can you expect to be taken seriously with arguments like this?  How about the fact that Manning started his career 2-9 against the Patriots.  Wouldn't your logic PROVE that it was impossible for him to beat the Patriots in a playoff game?

And finally, stop acting like I can not compare anything Dalton does with the best QBs in the league when you have already done that with your list of Super Bowl QBs.  How are we supposed to discuss an in issue with out making comparisons to other QBs?

There is no need to use definitive words like "impossible". It is not impossible until AD retires.

My logic is that Peyton Manning's much larger sample size and successful career vs AD's. If AD can never figure out the Colts, but figures out just about everyone else, I can live with that. Time will tell on that.

I am more concerned with his playing well against good teams or teams that are consistently good. Last year, the Bengals beat a lot of bad teams - despite the injuries - which was impressive. The year before, they beat a lot of good teams, and were healthy.

What confounds me is that they finished the season going 5-1 and then laid such an egg to SD. That is worrisome as a fan because they had just beaten down SD on the road only to come back and get killed at home. AD's inconsistency is the problem and it stems from the mental.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. Nobody has ever placed 100% of the blame on any one person. That’s just a phrase folks use to defend someone: “I guess it’s all Andy’s fault”, ‘So you are saying Marvin is 100% to blame?”. If I had to find a scapegoat it would be Mike Brown. He treats his team solely as a business and often cuts corners on his players’ amenities. To be a Champion you’ve got to believe you’re a champion. That is very hard to do when you are commuting to the local University or recreational soccer facility to practice indoors.

2. Yes, Andy is improving, the problem is that he is doing it very slowly and he may be nearing his ceiling.  For instance Andy enjoyed a much better rookie year than other young starters such as Luck and Tannehill; yet both have already demonstrated they have a higher ceiling than Andy.

3. I am not confident anyone will take us to a Super Bowl; however, Andy currently gives us the best chance.  

[spazz70]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

You never respond to my posts but I will give it a shot.

1.  I am not taking any blame from Dalton...He is not a Brady, Manning or Rodgers and we all know that....but he is our QB and better than a lot of other options out there...When the entire teams craps their pants every single playoff game, even when Dalton was not here, the problem lies somewhere else...

2.  I feel that Dalton had a down year last year due to the change in offense and at the end of the season losing his weapons going into the playoffs..In general, under all of the circumstances...yes, he has improved...Does he still need more improvement?  100% YES.

3. I am confident if all the chips fell in the right order he is good enough to win a SB...Do i feel that if we had to depend on Dalton to carry the team to the SB then my answer would be NO...  And I do not expect him to do it...

[samhain]

This team has more issues than just the qb. I'd like him to play better consistently, but blame can be passed around on the offense.

For one, I think that this team has lacked a competent possession wr since TJ left. He never had another year like he did here when he left, so perhaps not paying him was the right thing to do, but there's been a hole at that spot ever since he left. Andy had never had a tough, dependable guy to go to in the short/intermediate game or over the middle that can get them critical first downs.

It's not for lack of trying, either. Perhaps guys like that just aren't easy to develop or come by. I had hoped Sanu would be that guy, but I believed he showed us last season that he probably isn't. He's strong and athletic, but just doesn't have the hands or crispness in his routes. I'm not sure what happened to him hands-wise. He seemed dependable in his first year, but his drops last season were a regression. I don't think it's too late for him just yet, as even TJ took time to become what he was, but as of now he's a marginal wr and I could care less if he's re-signed after 2015.

Secondly, they lack an effective edge rusher for 3rd downs. I'm not even sure that they want one after the way they drafted this year. There's a definite trend in the league toward utilizing tweener types, once relegated to 3-4 sets, as 3rd down specialists and OLBs. Miller, Barr, and Mack are all examples. The Bengals clearly have a DE prototype that they like, and it's not anyone like this. Perhaps years of getting burned by guys like Lawson, Pollack, and Moch have them hesitant to jump on this bandwagon. They've shown that they can effectively use a DL rotation, so I'sd think a specialist like this would fit in well on the team. Just a matter of finding/wanting to find that player.

Third is the on-field leadership. It seems lacking. Who is the player on this team with the attitude, paycheck, and high level play to hold other player accountable on either side of the ball? Perhaps Whitworth? Certainly not AJ, as he rarely shows his emotions. Dalton?

On defense they had Vontaze, and when he left it seemed like the life went out of the whole unit. Maualuga and Peko are marginal starters with the experience, but hardly seem like guys to be feared in the locker room.

Successful teams always seem to have these kinds of players. Pittsburgh was teeming with them. They were beside themselves late in Bettis' career when they'd lose playoff games, knowing he didn't have a lot of time left. Guys like Ward and Harrsion in their primes were stars with insane work-ethics that could demand everything from younger guys. There's no need to even go into the Ravens and their history with guys like that. The Pats have an unquestioned tyrant in Belichick, but Brady is always ripping someone on the sideline. He has all a man could want and still just burns to win more than anything. The Seahawks have Sherman to provide fire to balance out Wilson's calm on the other side of the ball.

I rarely see this edge on this team. Adam Jones shows it at times. That's about it. I think they need more of it.

[fredtoast]

Best thing about this thread is that from now on every time CornerBlitz starts squealing about how no one ever blames Dalton for anything we can just post a link to this thread.

[Beaker]

(07-05-2015, 12:50 PM)PDub80 Wrote: A good example would be if he had lost to the Steelers 6 times in a row, but beaten them the last 2 straight and played really well. I think each situation and timing of these performances merits it's own micro look before putting it into a macro conclusion.

Appropriate macro conclusion = on any given Sunday....even with Andy Dalton at QB.

[J24]

(07-05-2015, 03:27 PM)samhain Wrote: This team has more issues than just the qb.  I'd like him to play better consistently, but blame can be passed around on the offense.  

For one, I think that this team has lacked a competent possession wr since TJ left.  He never had another year like he did here when he left, so perhaps not paying him was the right thing to do, but there's been a hole at that spot ever since he left.  Andy had never had a tough, dependable guy to go to in the short/intermediate game or over the middle that can get them critical first downs.  

It's not for lack of trying, either.  Perhaps guys like that just aren't easy to develop or come by.  I had hoped Sanu would be that guy, but I believed he showed us last season that he probably isn't.  He's strong and athletic, but just doesn't have the hands or crispness in his routes.  I'm not sure what happened to him hands-wise.  He seemed dependable in his first year, but his drops last season were a regression.  I don't think it's too late for him just yet, as even TJ took time to become what he was, but as of now he's a marginal wr and I could care less if he's re-signed after 2015.

Secondly, they lack an effective edge rusher for 3rd downs.  I'm not even sure that they want one after the way they drafted this year.  There's a definite trend in the league toward utilizing tweener types, once relegated to 3-4 sets, as 3rd down specialists and OLBs.  Miller, Barr, and Mack are all examples.  The Bengals clearly have a DE prototype that they like, and it's not anyone like this.  Perhaps years of getting burned by guys like Lawson, Pollack, and Moch have them hesitant to jump on this bandwagon.  They've shown that they can effectively use a DL rotation, so I'sd think a specialist like this would fit in well on the team.  Just a matter of finding/wanting to find that player.

Third is the on-field leadership.  It seems lacking.  Who is the player on this team with the attitude, paycheck, and high level play to hold other player accountable on either side of the ball?  Perhaps Whitworth?  Certainly not AJ, as he rarely shows his emotions.  Dalton?  

On defense they had Vontaze, and when he left it seemed like the life went out of the whole unit.  Maualuga and Peko are marginal starters with the experience, but hardly seem like guys to be feared in the locker room.    

Successful teams always seem to have these kinds of players.  Pittsburgh was teeming with them.  They were beside themselves late in Bettis' career when they'd lose playoff games, knowing he didn't have a lot of time left.  Guys like Ward and Harrsion in their primes were stars with insane work-ethics that could demand everything from younger guys.  There's no need to even go into the Ravens and their history with guys like that.  The Pats have an unquestioned tyrant in Belichick, but Brady is always ripping someone on the sideline.  He has all a man could want and still just burns to win more than anything.  The Seahawks have Sherman to provide fire to balance out Wilson's calm on the other side of the ball.

I rarely see this edge on this team.  Adam Jones shows it at times.  That's about it.  I think they need more of it.

1.) Agreed to a point but in Sanu's  defense he really has never been used in that role. Last season we used him as. A number 1 and the year before we had so many targets that know one other than AJ produced high yardage numbers. I would actually like to see what he can do in the slot this season to complement both Marvin and AJ.

2.) agreed 100% we could use an edge  pass rush specialist on this team.

3.) We have plenty of leaders on this team and in all honesty I think fans overrate the intensity factor quite a bit.You win and loose games because of our good you are physically and mentally not because someone is in your face all the time.   

[samhain]

(07-05-2015, 05:37 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Agreed to a point but in Sanu's  defense he really has never been used in that role. Last season we used him as. A number 1 and the year before we had so many targets that know one other than AJ produced high yardage numbers. I would actually like to see what he can do in the slot this season to complement both Marvin and AJ.

2.) agreed 100% we could use an edge  pass rush specialist on this team.

3.) We have plenty of leaders on this team and in all honesty I think fans overrate the intensity factor quite a bit.You win and loose games because of our good you are physically and mentally not because someone is in your face all the time.   

I'm just not sure who holds anyone accountable on this team.  The FO puts a high value on just being drafted by them and the HC is a player's coach to the hilt.  With those two obvious choices out, I look to the players to self-police.

[djs7685]

(07-05-2015, 04:18 PM)Beaker Wrote: Appropriate macro conclusion = on any given Sunday....even with Andy Dalton at QB.

With that logic, we shouldn't care about even getting any decent players and should throw a bunch of bums on the field every week. Hey, any given Sunday!