Accountability?

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2016, 12:42 PM)treee Wrote: Oh, so you threw a barrage of questions at me (attack them physically? seriously?) under the guise that you were trying to have conversation when in reality it was very obvious what you were doing. You can either be petty, pretend not to know what I'm talking about, and ruin yet another thread, or you can actually make the boards a better place by participating in a decent manner. I don't have the patience to constantly have to combat your antagonistic ways. It is about time someone on here called you out in a respectful and concise manner. I'm sure there are many members who will back me up on this.

So far here is what I have from your thread.

AJ Green had to get the media involved becaue he felt the team was not doing what it needed to do to address the problem with the O-line.  Thta is your position, correct?  So what exactly does Green think the team should be doing that they are not?  Does he want them to cut players?  Bench players? Or does he feel like Whit and the coaches that the players just need to improve their execution?

Seems to me that you are taking a very generic criticism by Green and trying ti turn it into an indictment of the way the team is run.  I think that is just a big leap with nothing to support it other than the outrage here on these boards about the vague concept of "no accountability".

So far this year Ogbuehi has lost playing time do to his poor play.  Interior d-linemen have lost playing time when Gilberry was signed.  It seems to me that our coaching staff is taking steps to improve the team, but no one wants to acknowledge this.  

benching players when you don't have better replacements does not fix anything.  That is why it is rare for ANY NFL team to just start shuffling new players into the lineup every week.  One of the ways that NFL players get better is by playing.  That is why coaches tend to stick with the players they feel are the best.  Taking away playing time and giving it to a lesser player hurts the team in the present, but also sunts the development of the better player.  Certain units (especially the O-line) work best when they learn how to work together with the sme players.  I rememeber seeing a story a few years ago about how much better O-lines perform if they consistently work with the same players in the same positions over time.  Also QBs need to work with the same receivers to get their timing down.  It is not just as simple as "Bench every player who messes up every week and plug in some new guy".  That is why pretty much NO NFL team shuffels its starting lineup every week even after they have gotten blown out. 

[treee]

(11-20-2016, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So far here is what I have from your thread.

AJ Green had to get the media involved becaue he felt the team was not doing what it needed to do to address the problem with the O-line.  Thta is your position, correct?  So what exactly does Green think the team should be doing that they are not?  Does he want them to cut players?  Bench players? Or does he feel like Whit and the coaches that the players just need to improve their execution?

Seems to me that you are taking a very generic criticism by Green and trying ti turn it into an indictment of the way the team is run.  I think that is just a big leap with nothing to support it other than the outrage here on these boards about the vague concept of "no accountability".

So far this year Ogbuehi has lost playing time do to his poor play.  Interior d-linemen have lost playing time when Gilberry was signed.  It seems to me that our coaching staff is taking steps to improve the team, but no one wants to acknowledge this.  

benching players when you don't have better replacements does not fix anything.  That is why it is rare for ANY NFL team to just start shuffling new players into the lineup every week.  One of the ways that NFL players get better is by playing.  That is why coaches tend to stick with the players they feel are the best.  Taking away playing time and giving it to a lesser player hurts the team in the present, but also sunts the development of the better player.  Certain units (especially the O-line) work best when they learn how to work together with the sme players.  I rememeber seeing a story a few years ago about how much better O-lines perform if they consistently work with the same players in the same positions over time.  Also QBs need to work with the same receivers to get their timing down.  It is not just as simple as "Bench every player who messes up every week and plug in some new guy".  That is why pretty much NO NFL team shuffels its starting lineup every week even after they have gotten blown out. 

I don't know what Green thinks we should do. If I did, I would share it with all of you. I was just pointing out one example of a player trying to hold his teammates accountable. 

"Seems to me that you are taking a very generic criticism by Green and trying ti turn it into an indictment of the way the team is run."

This quote is exactly what I'm talking about. I started a thread with an open ended question, open to all types of discussion. Go ahead and show me where I turned that statement into an indictment about how the team is run. I'll save you some time, you won't find it because it doesn't exist. You're assigning viewpoints to me that I never even took. You're bringing your issues with other people into my thread. Stop.

I never insinuated that the coaches weren't trying to address our issues this year. 

As for your rant about benching players, that has nothing to do with what has been said in this thread.

Your forum etiquette is making this message board a worse place. Why don't you start trying to put some more effort into actually having conversations rather than looking for places to defend your viewpoints.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Do not feed the troll.

[Shake n Blake]

It's hard to have accountability on a team with a GM who will never fire himself or a HC who has admitted (after yet another extension) that he probably would've fired himself. Or when you have a position coach of a unit that is dreadfully bad, but no action is taken to correct it.

Then you have a team full of quiet good guys (Dalton, Whit, Peko, Dunlap, Atkins, Gio, Green, Boyd, etc). Good when it comes to staying out of the news with arrests. Bad for fiery leadership. We really don't have any guys who will step up and motivate underperforming parts of the team. In fact, I think that kind of mentality is discouraged with the Bengals.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2016, 01:09 PM)treee Wrote: As for your rant about benching players, that has nothing to do with what has been said in this thread.

Oh really?

(11-20-2016, 11:22 AM)treee Wrote: I think if a starter is under-peforming it is perfectly reasonable to bench them and give their backup a shot. People always say "The coaches know how good the players are because they seem them in practice", but at this point why not actually give it a shot in order to reaffirm (or not) how you've evaluated the player?

[treee]

(11-20-2016, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Oh really?

Yes, really. You asked me a general question about my philosophy on benching players and I gave you my general philosophy on benching players. If you were trying to expand upon that point a, then I misinterpreted. I (understandably so) had thought you were yet again assigning viewpoints to me. 

[*wildcats forever*]

(11-20-2016, 11:05 AM)treee Wrote: Do any of you think our players hold each other accountable for poor performance? If so, who do you think is holding them accountable? The only recent example I can think of is AJ saying that the line has to give Andy more time, but there may also be things going on behind the scenes as well.

I believe it is dependent on the dynamics and chemistry within the position groups. I'd expect senior members of a group, thinking Nelson, Newman or Hall when they were here, would 'teach' nuance/finer elements of technique, verbally and by example, all the while developing a friendship and a healthy level of respect. From there I'd imagine serious but friendly razzing someone for a major screw-up in a game, and that having a positive effect on minimizing those occurrences. That's one possible scenario.

As for our oline, it's getting harder for me to imagine what is going on in the minds of those involved, given most every week's miserable result. I cannot imagine Whit not saying and doing everything he knows to do to encourage his peers. His leadership is well documented, so him holding those boys accountable in some fashion is a given. 

Two things jump out at me. Lack of talent and health issues are at play here. Zeitler has not been himself this year, and that points to an unreported health issue. Normally, I'd hope a player would be held accountable for not taking himself off the field if he's too hurt to play w/o being a liability. Maybe in this case, a Zeitler at 75% is better than a sub, whose 100% is worse. And how do you hold second stringers accountable when their level of talent does not meet the challenge of the position? A 'traditional' pro just won't call out someone who simply can't play well enough to be at least effective. 

Coaching issues can also minimize player's efforts in self-policing. If the only major change has been the direction the players are getting, how can players hold each other accountable without ultimately committing mutiny?  (okay, that's probably a stretch). 

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2016, 01:09 PM)treee Wrote: "Seems to me that you are taking a very generic criticism by Green and trying ti turn it into an indictment of the way the team is run."

This quote is exactly what I'm talking about. I started a thread with an open ended question, open to all types of discussion. Go ahead and show me where I turned that statement into an indictment about how the team is run. I'll save you some time, you won't find it because it doesn't exist. You're assigning viewpoints to me that I never even took. You're bringing your issues with other people into my thread. Stop.

Right here it is.

(11-20-2016, 11:22 AM)treee Wrote:  As far as throwing under the bus to media/fans, I think that depends on whether they feel the coaches are actually addressing the issues.

Basically you are claiming that the reason Green criticized the pass protection to the press is because the coaches are not addressing the issue.

This all goes back to my original question.  What form of "accountability" do you think this team needs.  You specifically cited what Green said, and I asked how that helps anything.  Apparently you only feel that speaking to the media helps when the player thinks the coaches are not doing what needs to be done.

So, again, how does Green's "holding his teammates accountable" help this team?  Because I don't see anything in Greens comments that makes me think he feels the coaches are not doing their jobs.  Instead i think he is just stating a fact.  I don't think stating a simple fact amounts to "holding players accountable", and I don't see how it will improve the team.

Almost everythread has a comment about "no accountability".  But now that you have started a thread on the subject it seems like you don't want to actually discuss the issue because as soon as I asked a question (instead of just 100% agreeing with you) you get all bent out of shape.  

[Pat5775]

(11-20-2016, 12:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What do you mean by "hold accountable"?

I am not trying to start an argument.  I honestly do not know what you mean.  Do you think he should rip them to the media?  Release them?  Bench them?

Basically, very few players would get away with committing so many dumbass penalties under other coaches. It's a constant thing here, has been for years. In a nutshell, the stupid behavior from the likes of Burfict, pacman, etc would never be tolerated under a coach like bellichik. The inmates run the asylum in Cincy.

[treee]

(11-20-2016, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right here it is.



Basically you are claiming that the reason Green criticized the pass protection to the press is because the coaches are not addressing the issue.

This all goes back to my original question.  What form of "accountability" do you think this team needs.  You specifically cited what Green said, and I asked how that helps anything.  Apparently you only feel that speaking to the media helps when the player thinks the coaches are not doing what needs to be done.

So, again, how does Green's "holding his teammates accountable" help this team?  Because I don't see anything in Greens comments that makes me think he feels the coaches are not doing their jobs.  Instead i think he is just stating a fact.  I don't think stating a simple fact amounts to "holding players accountable", and I don't see how it will improve the team.

Almost everythread has a comment about "no accountability".  But now that you have started a thread on the subject it seems like you don't want to actually discuss the issue because as soon as I asked a question (instead of just 100% agreeing with you) you get all bent out of shape.  

Fun fact for everyone out there, when someone prefaces their account of your words with "Basically", it is a huge red flag that they might be distorting what you said.

To directly address your chain of logic, I have a couple of issues with you supposition. First you are assuming that I think that Green made those comments because he does not think the proper changes are being made. Those are two unrelated statements that you're stringing together to make a weak argument. Secondly, since you're going to get into semantics, I would hardly classify "they have to give him more time" as throwing them under the bus. 

Basically you're using incorrect assumptions and lumping together unrelated statements to create an argument against me because apparently you don't know how to think in any other terms than lawyer.

Edit: Also I'd like to point out another facet of error in your assumption. You took my statement that players can voice discontent to the press as a method to pressure for change in a manner which would imply that it is the only reason for a player to speak to the press about the performance of their teammates.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2016, 02:03 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Basically, very few players would get away with committing so many dumbass penalties under other coaches. It's a constant thing here, has been for years. In a nutshell, the stupid behavior from the likes of Burfict, pacman, etc would never be tolerated under a coach like bellichik. The inmates run the asylum in Cincy.

You clearly do not remember Rodney Harrison.

He was penalized and fined  multiple times for dirty play and was suspended for using steroids.  Yet Bill never benched him.

Stop making things up.

[Pat5775]

(11-20-2016, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You clearly do not remember Rodney Harrison.

He was penalized and fined  multiple times for dirty play and was suspended for using steroids.  Yet Bill never benched him.

Stop making things up.

Ok, who else?

There's an exception to every rule.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(11-20-2016, 12:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When was the last time Belichick benched or released a player for fumbling.  I guarantee you it was a scrub who he had just plugged into his system.  He never benched Brady or Gronk for fumbling.

Blount the RB Collins the LB got shipped to  Siberia. for free lancing on play calls. 3 or 4 bad games Hogan WR could be released. No loyalty you will be replaced immediately if your a problem for that team. they traded Moss mid season

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-20-2016, 12:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When was the last time Belichick benched or released a player for fumbling.  I guarantee you it was a scrub who he had just plugged into his system.  He never benched Brady or Gronk for fumbling.

I don't know off the top of my head, but it wasn't a scrub because it was his starting tailback.  And just because you, of course, disagree doesn't negate the fact that it is true and accountability does matter.  

[Mickeypoo]

(11-20-2016, 11:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I hear a lot of crying about "lack of accountability" but I don't really know what that means.

I am 100% certain that when a players messes up coaches address the problem and try to fix it, but I don't know what else everyone wants to happen.  Do they want players telling each other that they suck.  Do they want them to physically punish each other? Do they want them to throw teammates under the buss to the media and fans?  Do they want every starter that messes up to be benched, and if so for how long?  Do they want every player that messes up to be released?

Since I don't see any other teams doing any of this I wonder what exactly fans want to happen when they talk about "holding someone accountable".

14 years.  ZERO playoff wins.  Still here=No accountability.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-20-2016, 08:09 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: 14 years.  ZERO playoff wins.  Still here=No accountability.

The people keeping him haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

See a pattern here...

[Mickeypoo]

(11-20-2016, 08:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The people keeping him haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

See a pattern here...

Absolutely.  We are on the same page.  :)

[2MinutesHate]

(11-20-2016, 11:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I hear a lot of crying about "lack of accountability" but I don't really know what that means.

I am 100% certain that when a players messes up coaches address the problem and try to fix it, but I don't know what else everyone wants to happen.  Do they want players telling each other that they suck.  Do they want them to physically punish each other? Do they want them to throw teammates under the buss to the media and fans?  Do they want every starter that messes up to be benched, and if so for how long?  Do they want every player that messes up to be released?

Since I don't see any other teams doing any of this I wonder what exactly fans want to happen when they talk about "holding someone accountable".

I am so hoping you will find out the answer to your question by the start of next season.

If you have, we will have moved forward.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2016, 08:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The people keeping him haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

See a pattern here...

Yep, Piano Man has been here 22 of them.......

With that said, management is the problem, and Mediocre Marv shoulda been sent packing after 2010....if management had any spine.