State of the Bengals: Running Back

[SunsetBengal]

(01-02-2017, 07:40 PM)J24 Wrote: Well duh but that's not a Hill problem that's a coaching problem. The Patriots play a similar system to us and  they make Blount work.  Make the system  fit the player not the player fit the system.

That is what most coaching staffs do, but this is the Bengals organization that we are talking about. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 05:50 PM)milksheikh Wrote: I don't think we should have Hill as the primary back but a speed back that can juke and make plays by himself.


Someone that has hands and can make small/intermediate catches would be also nice, I liked what I saw out of Dalvin Cook but don't want to spend a 1st rounder on a RB.

I get what you are saying about RB in the first, but look at where the draft has talent.  OT?  Nope.  CB?  Not a stellar class.  DE?  Yes, but after the top 3, a drop off.  Don't need a QB.  WR?  Talented, but I like what we have in Core as our X receiver.  So, many of the position groups that are historically drafted at the top of round 1 aren't either talent rich or remote needs.  

Dallas took Zeke at #4 and never looked back.  Cook may not have Zeke's power, but he has speed and hands.  If we can't get one of the big 3 DEs, I am really warming up to the idea of a stud RB that fits this offense so well.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 07:34 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: To me one of the greatest slams against our coaches is they did not play TRA CARSON, I think that is his name,anyways this guy is a beast of a runner,just the way Rex is I watched him during pre-season and know one defender could stop him,he is big like 235,and very strong,i just do not know why marvin did not use this guy.I am telling you with him,rex and gio in there at different times giving each other rest,we could wear down any D.If they do not use him in 2017 someone is going to get him and he will be a starter.We do not need to address RB in this draft,this guy is a starter day one.I would make REX,and GIO starter,with TRA AND JERMEY HILL AS BACKUPS.We would be set and would kill defenses with that kind of attack along with our receivers.I hope they see this.I am telling you this guy is the real deal.

He looked good in the preseason, but I would like to see him against a real NFL defense.  I was disappointed they didn't shelve Hill earlier and go with more of Carson and Sexy.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 07:40 PM)J24 Wrote: Well duh but that's not a Hill problem that's a coaching problem. The Patriots play a similar system to us and  they make Blount work.  Make the system  fit the player not the player fit the system.

You think the coaches should change their offense to fit one player?  The Patriots use two and three TE formations all day long...when was the last time you saw the Bengals do this?  

Hill requires a huge hole and a fullback lead to get 5 yards?  Great, there are lots of people that could do that, but it limits your play action and makes you predictable in those formations.  Hill just doesn't fit.  Get a RB like Gio and Rex and go with the three in a rotation.  Defenses won't know if they will be in for a pass or a rush...too damn predictable with Hill.

And it also isn't the coaches fault that Hill is poor in blitz pick up and isn't a polished route runner.  How do you not see it?  It worked for Rex with NO AJ AND NO EIFERT!!!

[Derrick]

(01-02-2017, 03:55 PM)Joelist Wrote: I tend to think the issue with running the ball goes to poor offensive line technique. When you watch them in games, our linemen play too high, actually give ground and use pulling too much to the point where defenses know it is coming and adjust for it.

Then look at teams that run it well - they get their pads low and drive right into the defense aggressively. That makes the holes the backs can burst into. If you want to know why Ezekiel Elliot had the rookie year he did look no further than the Dallas OL play - they gave him a clean backfield and nice holes to hit.

So if it is technique then it is the line coaching that comes into question...

I don't think there is any question about this after this past season!!!

[Derrick]

(01-02-2017, 09:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He looked good in the preseason, but I would like to see him against a real NFL defense.  I was disappointed they didn't shelve Hill earlier and go with more of Carson and Sexy.  

There is something really stubborn in Marvy's make up. He is also myopic. Any reasonable HC would have activated Carson mid season.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 09:30 PM)Derrick Wrote: There is something really stubborn in Marvy's make up. He is also myopic. Any reasonable HC would have activated Carson mid season.

I think I know some of what Marv is trying to do by sticking with the draft pick, but if there is one thing that Pete Carroll does correctly (other than do shit and get away with it, fricking teflon bastard) is that he creates competition at every position.  Does anyone really think they would have won a Super Bowl with Matt Flynn, who they signed as a FA and paid a lot of money over the 3rd rounder that was too short to start in the NFL?

No one cares how nice or loyal you are to your players, Marv, if you aren't succeeding.  

[coachmcneil71]

I haven't yet combed this thread but imho I would prefer that the team move on from Hill or at least find a suitable replacement. Obviously, the line was shoddy at best this season and that didn't help matters for any of the the rbs.

Honestly, I expected more fire and resolve from him after costing us a playoff win in the previous season.
It's nothing personal with him. Its just I don't think he gets what it means to be a serious pro yet or if he ever will.

[Jpoore]

(01-02-2017, 11:39 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I thought this might be a fun way to address off-season needs and the draft by analyzing the position groups one-by-one. I don't want to do one every day, so I will give a few days for this subject (RB) and once it appears to be a dead thread I will start a new position group.

Here goes the first one: I choose RB because it should be fresh in everyone's mind what we just saw out of Rex.

I look at the Bengals current stock of running backs (Hill, Gio, Rex, Peerman...Tra Carson, last game PS acquistion) and I immediately question why in the hell the Bengals running game is so poor. Before everyone begins shouting obscenities at Ogbuehi and Bodine, I think it is much more than just that.

Sure, the lack of good blocking on the offensive line was a contributing factor, but it is only a piece of the puzzle. I look at the RBs and I see two players with a similar skill set, a special teamer, and Hill. Hill stands out because he is a "bigger back" and should be able to hit the hold hard and get the tough yards on third and two, but he simply isn't that player. He has seemingly lost his burst and before anyone quotes the YPC for Hill and Gio being similar, if you take away the performances against Cleveland where I think any of the RBs could have had a field day, Hill likely averaged under 3 YPC. That is just awful.

Hill is also not a very good route runner, unlike Gio and Rex. Hill also struggles in picking up the blitz.

This isn't meant to be a 'Hill-bashing" post, but here is what I am trying to illustrate and here is my solution: When Hill is on the field, it is usually going to be as a rushing threat. Much more than as a receiver. The defense knows that. With Gio and Rex, they can be either a rush threat or a significant downfield receiving threat. That predictability can be solved by replacing Hill with another back similar to Gio and Rex. Rotate all three of them to keep them fresh, and the playbook should not be limited when those three would be in the game. Peerman is obviously just special teams (and a damn good one at that) but he doesn't enter game plan discussions as a RB. One other way to help with the offensive line issues with players already on the roster is more utilization of two TE sets, where one TE can stay in to help block, but must be accounted for as a potential receiving target. A healthy Uzomah, Croft, and Eifert could all be very effective used in this role.

If the big 3 of DEs are gone by selection #9. Should the Bengals draft Delvin Cook?

Remember, the running game is probably the Bengals single greatest weakness. This would solve it essentially overnight.

Furthermore, I like the idea of getting Rex and even Gio some snaps at WR when Cook would be on the field. It just creates more mismatches against LBs.

Thoughts?

Wr is our biggest weakness we need to have a plan if aj green goes down. I didn't feel like this until 2 weeks ago but that's why my pick is mike Williams. This would instantly be a top 3 offense in the NFL. Also as ur 2 tight end set conversation if butt falls to the third of fourth we need to jump on him. He is the most complete tight end since Jason written.

[3wt]

(01-02-2017, 02:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: His was 4.6...easily better than Hill's or Gio's, but keep in mind that (a) he was totally fresh late in the season and (b) small sample size. He earned a shot at a bigger role, but if you give Burkhead 200 carries, I'd be willing to bet that his YPC would come tumbling down. Just as everyone else's has over the last decade. You might see some small spurts of quality running/blocking (BJGE in '12, Hill in '14, Rex in '16), but they've all wound up being anomalies.

Does anyone here really believe Rex is better than Gio?

I think the question is do we really believe Rex is better than Hill.  Watching over the last two years I have to say yes.  Hill has some fine skills.  He's a 240 lb back who has an extra gear in the open field.  But if you want a back who averages 4-5 yards a carry on a consistent basis resulting in third and short situations, is an accomplished receiver and is good in blitz pickups I have to say Burkhead is the better back.   He just seems to see the field better and make better decisions.

To me you pay the guy, start the guy and see how Hill plays when he's healthy and is filling in.  Reverse their roles for a season and see how it pans. 

I don't buy the fresh legs excuse here as Hill struggled from the very start of the season.

I don't think that Burkhead is a great back.   But I think he's a good back you can rely on in all facets of the game.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-03-2017, 03:24 PM)3wt Wrote: I think the question is do we really believe Rex is better than Hill.  Watching over the last two years I have to say yes.  Hill has some fine skills.  He's a 240 lb back who has an extra gear in the open field.  But if you want a back who averages 4-5 yards a carry on a consistent basis resulting in third and short situations, is an accomplished receiver and is good in blitz pickups I have to say Burkhead is the better back.   He just seems to see the field better and make better decisions.

To me you pay the guy, start the guy and see how Hill plays when he's healthy and is filling in.  Reverse their roles for a season and see how it pans. 

I don't buy the fresh legs excuse here as Hill struggled from the very start of the season.

I don't think that Burkhead is a great back.   But I think he's a good back you can rely on in all facets of the game.

1. I asked if Rex was better than Gio because everyone loves to bring up Hill and ignore that Gio averaged 3.7 YPC himself. I believe there are 2 reasons people ignore Gio's poor rushing performance. (A) People like Gio and (B) Gio not running well doesn't help the "it's all Hill's fault" argument.

2. Yes Hill had fresh legs at the beginning of the season. He also averaged 4.6 YPC through his first 10 games (same as Burkhead), and he did it against competition that was also fresh - unlike Burkhead.

-----------------

Look, I'm all for Burkhead getting a shot. I don't play favorites. I just don't think fixing the run game will be as simple as making Hill and Burkhead swap roles. The run game has been broken for a long long time. One good game where Burkhead got the majority of carries isn't enough evidence for me. People should pump the brakes a little IMO.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-02-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Your post reads like a brochure trying to sell Cook.

Call me stubborn, but I'm not convinced Hill is as much a part of the problem as you let on. For one, his YPC was dragged down severely by playing these last few games hurt before they finally shut him down. Earlier in the season - even outside of the Cleveland games - his YPC was nearly identical to Gio's, and either way you want to slice it...Gio's YPC was bad.

Once again, we finished 20th or worse in YPC, which has happened every year from 2006-present outside of Hill's rookie season. So this isn't just a one year thing. It's a decade long problem. I couldn't care less about Hill anymore. Go ahead and replace him, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a Fournette or a Cook get labeled a bust in this system with this blocking.

I agree with a lot.....but Cook already has experience behind a shitty line....and look at the numbers.  I'd take him regardless and move Hill on down the line.  Cook is the real deal....and has been since he first set foot on the field.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-02-2017, 05:50 PM)milksheikh Wrote: I don't think we should have Hill as the primary back but a speed back that can juke and make plays by himself.


Someone that has hands and can make small/intermediate catches would be also nice, I liked what I saw out of Dalvin Cook but don't want to spend a 1st rounder on a RB.

This guy is a game changer that finally got a shot on the big stage.  He's been this good since day one.  I would absolutely spend a 1st on him.....and he didn't sit his bowl game out.

[wolfkaosaun]

I like Cook. I like him a lot in all honesty. Have him above Fournette.

However, I don't see the Bengals drafting him and nor do I think they should. And here's why:

Our front 4 has been struggling lately. Outside of Dunlap and Atkins, who do we have? MJ, a guy who hasn't made impact plays and struggles to finish plays. Hunt and Clarke? Peko might be done. Billings is a hopeful, but we don't know what we have in him. And all our other DTs get hurt and end up missing weeks.

Give me Barnett, Allen, Taco, or McDowell.

Then throw in our LB issues. Dansby and Maualuga need to go. I know Burfict is good and many are hopeful for Vigil, but there's still a need there. Throw in Foster or Cunningham to instantly upgrade the position.

I'm not happy with our running game, but I'd give it another year. Especially if they don't start Ogbuehi.

Plus, I like Saquon Barkley more than Fournette and Cook. So I'dr ather take him next year personally.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-02-2017, 06:59 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Wow, I had no idea that we have been so historically mediocre running the ball.  Apparently this organization feels that we can win with passing, so all we need to do is run just well enough so we can pass.   

No.......they just keep.clinging to the notion that Paul Alexander is worth a shit. :paul: 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-03-2017, 05:30 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I like Cook. I like him a lot in all honesty. Have him above Fournette.

However, I don't see the Bengals drafting him and nor do I think they should. And here's why:

Our front 4 has been struggling lately. Outside of Dunlap and Atkins, who do we have? MJ, a guy who hasn't made impact plays and struggles to finish plays. Hunt and Clarke? Peko might be done. Billings is a hopeful, but we don't know what we have in him. And all our other DTs get hurt and end up missing weeks.

Give me Barnett, Allen, Taco, or McDowell.

Then throw in our LB issues. Dansby and Maualuga need to go. I know Burfict is good and many are hopeful for Vigil, but there's still a need there. Throw in Foster or Cunningham to instantly upgrade the position.

I'm not happy with our running game, but I'd give it another year. Especially if they don't start Ogbuehi.

Plus, I like Saquon Barkley more than Fournette and Cook. So I'dr ather take him next year personally.

Good points.....but no guarantee those guys are still there since we managed to screw up our draft position Sunday.  This cat is a baller.....I used to cuss Jimbo Fischer for not giving him enough touches his freshman year...lol.  Devonta Freeman is having a nice go of it in Atlanta.....Cook is three times the back Freeman is....and I wanted him.  If he's there......I'd take him.  I may be wrong....but I think he is a talent you just don't pass on if you can get him. I was right about Freeman. Heck.....he may not be around at 9.

[wolfkaosaun]

(01-03-2017, 05:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: Good points.....but no guarantee those guys are still there since we managed to screw up our draft position Sunday.  This cat is a baller.....I used to cuss Jimbo Fischer for not giving him enough touches his freshman year...lol.  Devonta Freeman is having a nice go of it in Atlanta.....Cook is three times the back Freeman is....and I wanted him.  If he's there......I'd take him.  I may be wrong....but I think he is a talent you just don't pass on if you can get him. I was right about Freeman.  Heck.....he may not be around at 9.

I really like Cook. I wouldn't be mad if they picked him at all. I'd be happy he was a Bengal.

I'd prefer other players to him, but I think he could be a very good player in this league.

I named 6 players, and Cook makes 7. We're at #9 and we already know teams will take QBs. So there's like a 99% chance that at least one of those listed players (including Cook) will be there at #9. I'm just hoping they don't screw up the pick.

[lostpoet2]

I don't trust the Bengals enough in evaluating RB talent to draft one in the first two rounds.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-03-2017, 07:10 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I really like Cook. I wouldn't be mad if they picked him at all. I'd be happy he was a Bengal.

I'd prefer other players to him, but I think he could be a very good player in this league.

I named 6 players, and Cook makes 7. We're at #9 and we already know teams will take QBs. So there's like a 99% chance that at least one of those listed players (including Cook) will be there at #9. I'm just hoping they don't screw up the pick.

Amen on that last sentence Bro.  We do need another pass rusher for sure.  I am biased on all things FSU....admittedly....but this kid is something special....as you noted.  I'd sure like to have him.  I wasn't sold on Dugans or Wilson....but I felt Warrick would make us a good wideout.  Of course...we had no one to get him the ball at the time....then injuries...so kinda hard to evaluate his time here.

[Jpoore]

(01-03-2017, 05:30 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I like Cook. I like him a lot in all honesty. Have him above Fournette.

However, I don't see the Bengals drafting him and nor do I think they should. And here's why:

Our front 4 has been struggling lately. Outside of Dunlap and Atkins, who do we have? MJ, a guy who hasn't made impact plays and struggles to finish plays. Hunt and Clarke? Peko might be done. Billings is a hopeful, but we don't know what we have in him. And all our other DTs get hurt and end up missing weeks.

Give me Barnett, Allen, Taco, or McDowell.

Then throw in our LB issues. Dansby and Maualuga need to go. I know Burfict is good and many are hopeful for Vigil, but there's still a need there. Throw in Foster or Cunningham to instantly upgrade the position.

I'm not happy with our running game, but I'd give it another year. Especially if they don't start Ogbuehi.

Plus, I like Saquon Barkley more than Fournette and Cook. So I'dr ather take him next year personally.

I love Barkley dude is legit. U see him in the Usc game?! My problem is he always seems to have to bounce it outside though. Ur forgetting a legit DE in Damarcus Walker I prefer him to any DE in this draft. He is legit he doesn't have the number but if u look at his numbers his first 2 years to his last 2 years it's like 2 different players. And as far as lb goes we definitely need upgrade if we go Williams in first (hopefully) would love McMillan in round 2 . Admitting osu bias. Or elflien center. Would never draft fournette due to ankle issues in college. Hoping we go Walker in 2 though