Let's Talk 3-4 Defense in Cincy

[treee]

I do think the 3-4 has more of a future than the 4-3 in an increasingly pass oriented league.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-05-2017, 01:41 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: I don't think Marvin likes it, hasn't he always ran 4-3?

Yes. The record setting 2000 Ravens defense was a 4-3 with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa as defensive tackles with a combined weight of over 700 pounds.

[Au165]

(01-05-2017, 01:41 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: The 3-4 looks more complicated for a offense to figure out just by me watching on tv, you don't know who is coming. 

Not really true. The reality is the OLB in a 3-4 are normally liabilities in coverage, so while they may drop they aren't very effective. The other issue with the 3-4 is if you run man you most likely have a pass rusher on a HB or TE which is a bad match up to start with.

As has been pointed out most of the defenses people think of when they think of the best ever weren't 3-4 defenses.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-05-2017, 01:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not really true. The reality is the OLB in a 3-4 are normally liabilities in coverage, so while they may drop they aren't very effective. The other issue with the 3-4 is if you run man you most likely have a pass rusher on a HB or TE which is a bad match up to start with.

As has been pointed out most of the defenses people think of when they think of the best ever weren't 3-4 defenses.

Yep...plus teams are running hybrid 3-4/4-3 combos.

IF we had better pass rushing LB's...that would be a possibility here...but we're probably 3 players away from even considering that.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-05-2017, 01:49 PM)treee Wrote: I do think the 3-4 has more of a future than the 4-3 in an increasingly pass oriented league.

Kinda, it seems like the nickel defense is the base defense for some teams now.  The Bengals run a nickel over 50% of the time, so it's their base.  That's why they have always made sure they had 3 starting caliber CBs.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-05-2017, 04:55 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Kinda, it seems like the nickel defense is the base defense for some teams now.  The Bengals run a nickel over 50% of the time, so it's their base.  That's why they have always made sure they had 3 starting caliber CBs.

Yep. That's why a guy like Jabril Peppers will have a lot of value. You can play the Nickel and he can slide down and play LB on certain plays.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-05-2017, 01:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Supposedly, if the Bengals were able to draft Manny Lawson when Marvin got here...they were going to switch to a 3-4. Lawson signed here many years later then and we didn't switch to a 3-4. We also had Atkins and Dunlap at that point.

Marvin has said it himself that he was going to change the D for Lawson in 2006. However, we had Zimmer and a ton of 4-3 guys when we got him in 2011 so there was no way we were changing schemes then.

[grampahol]

They have better things to do than rebuild a D that's pretty darn good to begin with. There's nothing magical about 3-4 as opposed to 4-3 and you need established personnel to pull it off. If they just switched we would likely see the D give up way more points with everyone screaming for Guenthers head all season. 

[Shake n Blake]

The time to implement a big schematic change would be during a rebuild. As much as we're all ticked off and disappointed, the Bengals are not in a rebuild. I know from watching our 3-4 conversion in the late 90's that it's not a simple process. The Bengals used a pair of 1st round picks on athletic LBs (Spikes and Simmons) and Dan Wilkinson had a pretty smooth conversion...yet it was still a struggle.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-05-2017, 08:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The time to implement a big schematic change would be during a rebuild. As much as we're all ticked off and disappointed, the Bengals are not in a rebuild. I know from watching our 3-4 conversion in the late 90's that it's not a simple process. The Bengals used a pair of 1st round picks on athletic LBs (Spikes and Simmons) and Dan Wilkinson had a pretty smooth conversion...yet it was still a struggle.

This is what i was going to say Shake. We are quite a few players away from playing a 3-4 and if we tried it right
now i think that would be stupid. Our Defense was playing pretty damn good after the bye week in a 4-3.

We are not in rebuild, we just need new coaches that hold players and more importantly themselves accountable
when they screw up. We need to learn to adjust as the game goes on to the other team's weaknesses.

I loved the drafting of Billings but he is a 4-3 DT, not a 3-4 NT and we only have one decent blitzing LB in Taze.

[*jason*]

(01-05-2017, 01:36 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Out of the front 7 only Burfict could make the move to the 3 4 defense. We definitely don't have the people to make the move. Not even close.

Nick Vigil designed the 3-4 defense....

[CageTheBengal]

We have good defensive players who have played at the top with the best of the best for a lot of year there is no reason to tear it all down over one bad season. That's a re-building process that is gonna take some time. Just change for the sake of change.

[magikod]

No way our defensive players are not fit for a 3-4 defense.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

The Bengals only have 1 good linebacker (who is often unavailable), let alone the 4 they would need to run a 3-4.

That would be taking one of the team's biggest weaknesses and trying to make it the most important part.

[Derrick]

(01-05-2017, 10:21 AM)kevin Wrote: OK, but lets say we draft one of the First Round Alabama Crimson Tide Linebackers in Round One.  You add THAT player to Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, Roach.....Starters would be Burfict, Maualuga, The # 1 Draft pick from Alabama, and whoever wins the 4th LB spot.  Rey has seen action but Bengals started getting Vigil game time who was not a low draft pick. .....Now even if we stay in a 4-3, we are going to need one of the Alabama Linebackers slated to go first round. ....Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1981 with Hank Bullough 3-4 defense with Dick LeBeau the DB coach.  Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1988 with Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was with LeBeau 3-4 defense.  Of course he went to Pittsburg and his defenses took them to Super Bowls. ......Either Reuben Foster or Tim Williams would be welcome additions to the Bengals. Not just star LBs at Alabama or the SEC but considered the top in the nation in this draft.  Both ranked very high by both CBS and ESPN. .....I hate that we can not even consider a 3-4 because our depth and talent at linebacker is always so weak.  Let change that and add some talent. Even if we stay in a 4-3, we need to add Foster or Williams in the draft.  We do not have Play-off win linebacker unit.

The Bengals need faster LBers who can cover short passes. Don't have them, won't get them, end of story.

[jfkbengals]

There is something I have not seen mentioned in all of this, that there are less players available to the NFL for 34 fronts then 43 fronts. The Steelers and Pats had a period of being the primary teams running the 34 and thus had their pick of whomever they wanted to fit their systems. Being a copycat league, more teams switched trying to emulate their defensive success, and shrinking the available talent pool. We have seen the success of the Steelers defensive draft picks tail off as a result. Bellicheck recognized the problem early enough that he started targeting hybrid guys for a few years to be in position to make a switch if the problem got worse. Now the 34 is the predominant defense in the NFL, and the Pats run a 43 base because there is a surplus of 43 players in drafts.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-06-2017, 06:03 PM)magikod Wrote: No way our defensive players are not fit for a 3-4 defense.

If that's true, tell me who you would put in the following spots:

NT - one of the most important positions in the 3-4.  Needs to be a space eater and able to absorb double teams.
DE - Also needs to be able to take on 2 guys and manage gaps.  
DE - 

OLB - needs to be able to rush the passer
OLB - needs to be able to rush the passer.

Right now we don't have a guy who projects well to OLB in a 3-4.  In a 3-4 our best pass rushers (Atkins and Dunlap) would be misused in a major way.

[CINwillWIN]

We have enough personal to perform a 5-2.
DE-MJ
DT-W.Gillberry
DT-G.Atkins
DT-M.Hunt/W.Clarke
DE-C.Dunlop
LB-V.Burfict
LB-N.Vigil/V.Rey

We still have rotation options, in LB, and DE. That much pressure, and that much inside hopefully stuffing RB, short, quick hits will/might be a thing of the past. Any one of our initial front 5 on the field at one time will demand a double team, but how would the offense do that?
Ideally/realistically, just trying to figure out our up-front woes.

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[samhain]

If there were any switch that would make sense, it would be to the base defense that utilized 6 defensive backs in LA the past year or so. They had 4 down linemen, 1 linebacker (Ogletree), and 6 DBs with Barron (the safety) acting as a linebacker and a nickel corner (Joyner) in the base.

Our LB personnel is pretty bad, with Burfict being the only really good player. We have (or had) a lot of capable corners. We also have a FS (Williams) that may just look better as a hybrid LB/S.

I'd go with the same starting DL, Burfict in the middle and Vigil spelling him when he gets tired, Iloka and Smith at SS and FS, Dre and Jones (or Jackson or Dennard) at the outside corner spots, Shaw in the nickel, and Williams as the LB/S hybrid.

Or not. Pretty sure most of that staff got fired, lol.

[BengalChris]

Moving to a 3-4 as the base defense isn't the change that needs to be made to cause the Bengals to turn the corner. Changing the defensive front formation won't fix anything in terms of wins and losses.

The changes needed on this team are the mentality of the coaching staff, particularly with the HC. Then there's also the mentality of the owner, which could easily be called the least effective over his entire time in control of the team. Sure it has improved a little, but he's sinking back into his old ways.

We have a HC who will switch to a prevent defense with a 3 point lead in the 3rd quarter. He's a simpleton, who like the team owner, is so set in his ways that he can't see any other way of doing things.

Getting back to the defensive front, you design the defense around your best players to stop and/or slow the offense you are playing any particular week.

If you have a really good pass rushing LB, then you can use them in a 4-3 front. The Bengals need an improved their pass rushing from the RDE spot and we need two new LBs to play alongside Burfict. Hopefully they'll be versatile LBs who can rush the passer, tackle well and cover receivers.