What Really Hurts About Mike Brown Family Right Now

[Murdock2420]

(01-25-2017, 12:33 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: It's embarrassing really.  I'm going to waste a few hours and do a full breakdown tomorrow.  Bottom line is they should be FORCED to sell the team given they don't give a flying **** about the product on the field.

With the recent run of 5 years in the playoffs, be hard pressed to get any traction with that movement unfortunately.

Not disagreeing with your stance, I think Mikey boy is the root of all the problems but I think of it a little bit differently. 

He wants to win, that I do not question. 

The issue, he wants to win "his way" and do it like Paul Brown did. Unfortunately, he doesn't have 1/12 the football IQ of his old man and being stubborn and doing it his way is going to result in the same old ending over and over. 

I really believe he has the want to win, everyone who is close to the organization, including Lap who is brutally honest, says he wants to win. It's just he will not change his way of doing things because he believes he can win his way.

[Vas Deferens]

(01-25-2017, 01:40 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: With the recent run of 5 years in the playoffs, be hard pressed to get any traction with that movement unfortunately.

Not disagreeing with your stance, I think Mikey boy is the root of all the problems but I think of it a little bit differently. 

He wants to win, that I do not question. 

The issue, he wants to win "his way" and do it like Paul Brown did. Unfortunately, he doesn't have 1/12 the football IQ of his old man and being stubborn and doing it his way is going to result in the same old ending over and over. 

I really believe he has the want to win, everyone who is close to the organization, including Lap who is brutally honest, says he wants to win. It's just he will not change his way of doing things because he believes he can win his way.

I agree with you 100%. He does want to win. And you're right, he has 1/12 the football IQ of his father but 100% the stubbornness and a moronic amount of justified loyalty. This is not a recipe to succeed in any market in the modern era. Football, baseball, florist, trapeze... you pick the SIC code, this is a business model for failure.

NEPOTISM DOES NOT WORK. Bottom line.

More to come. Thanks.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-24-2017, 10:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Roster turnover is a part of the NFL. We havent won jack shit with these guys. Every single one is replaceable.

Not saying i dont want to retain our good players. But there are more out there.

(01-24-2017, 11:07 PM)jason Wrote: I feel the same way man.

They pretty much need Whit back (and a prayer that his play doesn't fall off a cliff with age), but the rest of them are replaceable. I'd tag Dre, and hope for another "contract year" out of him, then reevaluate the CB position next off-season. I'd like LaFell back for a year, and I'd hate to lose Rex or Zietler... Maybe they can keep those guys if they lose enough dead weight.

Agreed on the expendable part......disagree on what they'll do.  We all know they will be replaced by aging turds....or young guys that were never good to begin with.  Whatever is cheapest.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-24-2017, 09:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yikes. The Falcons have 17 scouts alone. 10 "football operations" people not including their GM. They have categories the Bengals don't even have. Just by glancing over the lists, I'd say the Falcons employ more than double the people the Bengals do, and I don't see many family members.

We all know Bengals ownership sucks, but that puts it in even more depressing clarity.

A lot of teams have scouting staffs that put the Bengals staff to shame.

[muskiesfan]

The Bengals will always be what they are with Mike Brown at the helm. I also agree that he does want to win, he just has no ***** clue how to do it. Even though his way is obviously not working, he refuses to change and jump into this century of football thinking.

On the most recent Hard Knocks that the Bengals were on, Marvin Lewis talked about how Mike Brown constantly toys with lineups and with personnel packages. I find it impossible to believe that he simply does that to pass the time. No matter how much "control" Marvin has, I have no doubt that Mike Brown is in his ear with what he wants. I understand he's the owner and GM, but he is also the worst owner and worst GM in the entire goddamn league.

We always save the most for draft picks (even with the rookie wage scale), we always save to most for injuries (even though no one significant is still floating around late in the season), we always roll money over to the next year (whomever we draft in 2019, we may want to re-sign), and we constantly dig through the rest of the leagues scraps in free agency (because the ineptitude of the medical staff allowed them to throw money at Antonio Bryant). Even with the lack of nationwide appeal and bandwagon fans, Mike Brown makes A LOT of money. While I do not question his desire to win, I do believe his desire to make tons of money trumps his desire to win.

Other signs that point to Brown's desire for money over desire to win is Brown being the GM instead of paying one, the Bengals having the smallest scouting department in the NFL, still employing a medical staff that seems to have no clue as to what the hell they're doing, no practice bubble, no Ring of Honor or team Hall of Fame to recognize former team greats, the Bengals approach to free agency, and I'm sure there's more but I'm doing all of this off the top of my head.

I do want to fire Marvin Lewis and I definitely want to see Paul Alexander hit the bricks, but as long as Czar Brown is in charge, it doesn't even matter. Best coaching staff/worst coaching staff, good free agents/almost out the league free agents, top medical staff/hang nail ends a season week 1 medical staff, etc, etc doesn't matter. As long as Mike Brown keeps his meddling fingers in the middle of everything, playoff appearances are about the best we can hope for.

All of that aside, I love my Bengals and I always will. Yeah, it's tough to continue to support an owner who couldn't give a shit less about his fans, but there's no way I could find myself rooting for another team. Orange and black is in my blood.

[OrlandoBengal]

(01-24-2017, 06:12 PM)McC Wrote: I don't think we are close.  I think 2015 was our best chance and well, you know...

I think we might be on a backwards slide.  I have serious doubts about being able to patch the multitude of holes in one draft.

Traditionally, Marvin does have better years after down years.  And he will have a third place schedule.  But doesn't it just feel like other teams are passing us up?

I agree with this.  I think this team was really exposed this past season, and the number of holes are only going to grow.  One draft is not going to fix this team's problems, and we all know they are not going to be active in free agency.   If they lose Zeitler and Kirkpatrick, that backwards slide is going to quickly pick up momentum...

[OrlandoBengal]

(01-24-2017, 09:00 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Its felt that way for a long time, but the Falcons in the SB specifically makes it really feel like we haven't done shit from a personnel perspective in a long time.  I like Duke as much as the next guy.  I think he's done a wonderful job with what he's been given.  But there is just no way in hell that team can produce at the same level as other organizations that dedicate many more resources to it.  

Everyone do me a favor and compare the following.  Pay special attention to the scouting departments :

Cincinnati Bengals Staff

Atlanta Falcons Staff

I say this because I know an individual listed on the Falcons staff page.  He has outright told me the Bengals scouting process is laughable at best.  

I've thought about making a separate thread about this in the past, but I can't take the NFL mission to 'put the best product on the field' when the entirety of a teams 'administration' is listed on the 'presidents' do not resuscitate document.  HOLY ***** HELL

Comparing those two lists, the Bengals seem like some second rate minor league operation.  I don't know how Atlanta compares to the rest of the league, but damn...

(01-24-2017, 09:37 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The Bengals were spoiled from 1970-1991 with Paul Brown on the sideline and in the Front Office.  They didn't need anyone else.

I would argue that's not the case.  They may have thought it, but the team was not piling up Super Bowl trophies during that time.  Yes, they did go twice, but not like they were any sort of dynasty.

[grampahol]

Since when was quantity of scouts better than quality of scouts ? They could have 1000 scouts and it means nothing if they don't know how to evaluate. 
I'm not saying Bengals scouts are all that and a bag of chips, but having 10 or even 20 more doesn't automatically make them great at anything. It does mean there's more. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-25-2017, 11:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: Since when was quantity of scouts better than quality of scouts ? They could have 1000 scouts and it means nothing if they don't know how to evaluate. 
I'm not saying Bengals scouts are all that and a bag of chips, but having 10 or even 20 more doesn't automatically make them great at anything. It does mean there's more. 

I get what you're saying, but still. When we have 3 or 4 full time scouts and list another 5 or 6 from the scout pool that aren't really anything but making the numbers look better ?

Other teams have double, triple, or more the full time scouts we do. They can cover way more teams/area/players than we can - period.

In the end it's just another example of Mike Browns cheapness and thinking he can do it all himself.

[Vas Deferens]

(01-25-2017, 07:12 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Comparing those two lists, the Bengals seem like some second rate minor league operation.  I don't know how Atlanta compares to the rest of the league, but damn...

Bingo. My buddy, who I will admit is in the scouting dept list, was sniped from an AFCN team because his ability was in demand and the falcons decided to acquire it.

You can't acquire talent via conception. While it's cheap, it's not going to work Mikey/Katie. You have to to spend $ to get results. The players know it.

The only thing keeping our decent vets that resign here is the cost of living. All that shit about rookies not wanting to get drafted by the browns? Mark my words, that will be us soon enough.

Major changes needed at the highest levels. Anyone else want to beat this drum with me if I build it? It will be loud and it will not involve a lumina or Wendy's...

[BengalChris]

So close and yet so far.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-25-2017, 11:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: Since when was quantity of scouts better than quality of scouts ? They could have 1000 scouts and it means nothing if they don't know how to evaluate. 
I'm not saying Bengals scouts are all that and a bag of chips, but having 10 or even 20 more doesn't automatically make them great at anything. It does mean there's more. 

Do you believe other teams hire more scouts just so they can have a lot of shitty scouts instead of a small group of good scouts?

[Vas Deferens]

(01-25-2017, 11:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: Since when was quantity of scouts better than quality of scouts ? They could have 1000 scouts and it means nothing if they don't know how to evaluate. 

The way a lot of these evaluations happen is that a consensus of the scouts are prepared for executive decision.

I'm no mathymagician, but I thought the greater the sample size, the better the something?

Come on man. You know a better scouting team would produce better results.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-25-2017, 11:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: Since when was quantity of scouts better than quality of scouts ? They could have 1000 scouts and it means nothing if they don't know how to evaluate. 
I'm not saying Bengals scouts are all that and a bag of chips, but having 10 or even 20 more doesn't automatically make them great at anything. It does mean there's more. 

So you think the Bengals scouts are TWICE as good as teams like the Patriots scouts?

This team hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years. ALL other teams have won a playoff game over that span. Teams have more scouts than us.

There is likely a correlation between the bolded statements.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-24-2017, 09:00 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Its felt that way for a long time, but the Falcons in the SB specifically makes it really feel like we haven't done shit from a personnel perspective in a long time.  I like Duke as much as the next guy.  I think he's done a wonderful job with what he's been given.  But there is just no way in hell that team can produce at the same level as other organizations that dedicate many more resources to it.  

Everyone do me a favor and compare the following.  Pay special attention to the scouting departments :

Cincinnati Bengals Staff

Atlanta Falcons Staff

I say this because I know an individual listed on the Falcons staff page.  He has outright told me the Bengals scouting process is laughable at best.  

I've thought about making a separate thread about this in the past, but I can't take the NFL mission to 'put the best product on the field' when the entirety of a teams 'administration' is listed on the 'presidents' do not resuscitate document.  HOLY ***** HELL

I always knew the Bengals had a very small scouting department, but I never cared to look at the numbers of other franchises.

What really irritates me is that the Bengals have fewer scouts than the number of Power 5 conferences. How the heck are the Bengals supposed to find the time to check out all of these prospects thoroughly to find ideal draft picks? And you may as well kiss the small school prospects goodbye because the Bengals don't have time or headcount to go to those schools.
It seems more likely that the Bengals coaches find "their guy" in the draft and then go through each round where one coach gets to pick "their guy". Unfortunately, the list of "their guys" is likely much smaller than the lists of other teams.

[OrlandoBengal]

(01-26-2017, 02:23 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Bingo.  My buddy, who I will admit is in the scouting dept list, was sniped from an AFCN team because his ability was in demand and the falcons decided to acquire it.  

You can't acquire talent via conception.  While it's cheap, it's not going to work Mikey/Katie.   You have to to spend $ to get results.  The players know it.  

The only thing keeping our decent vets that resign here is the cost of living. All that shit about rookies not wanting to get drafted by the browns?  Mark my words, that will be us soon enough.

Major changes needed at the highest levels.  Anyone else want to beat this drum with me if I build it?   It will be loud and it will not involve a lumina or Wendy's...

I have felt for a long time now that it comes down to passion for the game and for the team.  Take Paul Allen, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft.  Guys like this made their money in other ventures, and then they bought a football team because they had passion for the league and for owning a team.  It's not a business to them, or at least it is not a business first.  It is about winning, something they are used to doing in most facets of their lives.

I think Mike Brown's passion is in the business side of the league.  Making sure that his family is taken care of, that his children and grandchildren are financially stable and can live off the "family business" which just happens to be a football team.  I think Paul Brown could have just as easily opened a widget factory or fruit distribution company and Mike's focus would have been the same.  And for the record, there is nothing wrong with wanting to take care of your family, in fact it is a noble goal.  I just don't know how well it lines up with professional sports.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-26-2017, 12:05 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I have felt for a long time now that it comes down to passion for the game and for the team.  Take Paul Allen, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft.  Guys like this made their money in other ventures, and then they bought a football team because they had passion for the league and for owning a team.  It's not a business to them, or at least it is not a business first.  It is about winning, something they are used to doing in most facets of their lives.

I think Mike Brown's passion is in the business side of the league.  Making sure that his family is taken care of, that his children and grandchildren are financially stable and can live off the "family business" which just happens to be a football team.  I think Paul Brown could have just as easily opened a widget factory or fruit distribution company and Mike's focus would have been the same.  And for the record, there is nothing wrong with wanting to take care of your family, in fact it is a noble goal.  I just don't know how well it lines up with professional sports.

Agreed. There is no salary cap on a scouting department.

If you're not going to sign many external free agents...then you better be really good at drafting.

Lets face it...not signing free agents places A LOT of pressure on drafting. You have to hit basically every year as there is no margin of error to just fill a roster spot with a top-end free agent. Missing on a guy like Bodine hurts bad for many years.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-26-2017, 12:05 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I have felt for a long time now that it comes down to passion for the game and for the team.  Take Paul Allen, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft.  Guys like this made their money in other ventures, and then they bought a football team because they had passion for the league and for owning a team.  It's not a business to them, or at least it is not a business first.  It is about winning, something they are used to doing in most facets of their lives.

I think Mike Brown's passion is in the business side of the league.  Making sure that his family is taken care of, that his children and grandchildren are financially stable and can live off the "family business" which just happens to be a football team.  I think Paul Brown could have just as easily opened a widget factory or fruit distribution company and Mike's focus would have been the same.  And for the record, there is nothing wrong with wanting to take care of your family, in fact it is a noble goal.  I just don't know how well it lines up with professional sports.

I wish I saved the quote, but I once read where an owner said that owning a team is "a civic responsibility". It isn't a normal business. You have a duty to work with the city and keep your fan base happy. I wish I had saved the quote and I can never find it anymore. Either way, it's never felt like Mike Brown gives two squats about the city or fans. He does what he wants to do and is full aware that revenue sharing negates the need to keep a good relationship with his customers.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-26-2017, 12:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agreed. There is no salary cap on a scouting department.

If you're not going to sign many external free agents...then you better be really good at drafting.

Lets face it...not signing free agents places A LOT of pressure on drafting. You have to hit basically every year as there is no margin of error to just fill a roster spot with a top-end free agent. Missing on a guy like Bodine hurts bad for many years.

That's the thing that always got me in the past. The team puts out this half truth about "building through the draft", but they have the smallest scouting department in the league. It doesn't add up.

What adds up is that Mike Brown doesn't pay scouts because he's cheap. He doesn't spend on free agents because he's cheap. He doesn't build a practice facility because...you guessed it...he's cheap.

Mikey boy runs the Bengals strictly as a business. Sure, he'd prefer a winner, but he isn't going to sacrifice $ to win football games. He's probably more proud of profit numbers for his family than wins.

[OrlandoBengal]

(01-26-2017, 12:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That's the thing that always got me in the past. The team puts out this half truth about "building through the draft", but they have the smallest scouting department in the league. It doesn't add up.

What adds up is that Mike Brown doesn't pay scouts because he's cheap. He doesn't spend on free agents because he's cheap. He doesn't build a practice facility because...you guessed it...he's cheap.

Mikey boy runs the Bengals strictly as a business. Sure, he'd prefer a winner, but he isn't going to sacrifice $ to win football games. He's probably more proud of profit numbers for his family than wins.

This is the thing that worries me about the future.  Many people say "just wait for Katie to take over and we'll see changes".  She is an attorney like her father, and learned the business at his side.  I'm not so sure that it won't be same old, same old.