Tom Brady and Andy Dalton against Texans

[Shake n Blake]

(01-25-2017, 02:33 PM)Wyche Wrote: Sums it up for me as well.....remember when were "haters" and kept defending ourselves as "realists" on the old board?  Who would have known we'd be labeled "homers" and still have to defend ourselves as "realists" a couple of short years later....  

Lol, we were both rocking Richard Simmons rainbow sigs back then, weren't we?

[Brownshoe]

(01-25-2017, 11:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol, we were both rocking Richard Simmons rainbow sigs back then, weren't we?

Wasn't that the Sig bet for the 2012 season? Damn, time flys.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-25-2017, 11:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol, we were both rocking Richard Simmons rainbow sigs back then, weren't we?

LOL.....I missed out on that bet....fortunately.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-25-2017, 01:26 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote:  THE ARGUMENT IS NOT CAN HE WIN WITH A STACKED TEAM...it is does he possess the talent and leadership to win in the playoffs here? to date the FACT is no he does not.

If your point is that Dalton CAN with, and only with, a "stacked" team, can you tell me what NFL QB has won playoff games without at least a pretty healthy and talented roster and superior coaching?  Again, not trying to say he is on par with Brady, Rogers, Brees, but I would argue he is just outside that top tier of QBs.  

The fact that Dalton has not won a playoff game here is frustrating.  The fact that you completely ignore the fact that no NFL QB has won a playoff here in something like 25 years is more frustrating.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-26-2017, 12:21 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Wasn't that the Sig bet for the 2012 season? Damn, time flys.

2011 actually, and yeah it seems like 2 years ago, not 6.

[Rhinocero23]

(01-26-2017, 07:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: If your point is that Dalton CAN with, and only with, a "stacked" team, can you tell me what NFL QB has won playoff games without at least a pretty healthy and talented roster and superior coaching?  Again, not trying to say he is on par with Brady, Rogers, Brees, but I would argue he is just outside that top tier of QBs.  

The fact that Dalton has not won a playoff game here is frustrating.  The fact that you completely ignore the fact that no NFL QB has won a playoff here in something like 25 years is more frustrating.

Point is well taken. Frustration seems to be par for the course for us Bengals fans!

I guess my push back is more against the ownership than the QB. I think Andy is (as stated before) not in the TOP 20% or in the bottom 20%. He is good but I think he (like all the 60% middle tier guys) needs help. Grated some of that mid-tier group needs more help than others but they all need help. They will not be the reason a good team is horrible but they probably can not carry a good to to greatness. 

Andy and Carson both could not overcome the shortcoming of this organization to win a playoff game. Kenny and Boomer came close to the brass ring and that window slammed closed very quickly on both of them. They too could not overcome the shortcomings of this organization. 

As you stated I am as frustrated as any fan here. My frustration is magnified when I see great fans drinking the MB kool aid. Andy will have a very very very difficult time winning a championship here. I do not think he posses the same skill set as Carson or Boomer and they could not do it.  I think he and Kenny are very similar, I do not think Kenny would be a Top 20% guy in today's NFL either as it is totally different now. 

When fans are absolutely unrealistic about Andy's ability it just feeds in the the cycle of craziness. They are several posters  that would bet their bottom dollar that Andy is capable of being the Best QB in the league or even in the TOP 20%....that is so nutty it is laughable. 

He lacks the physical tools and the leadership skills to be "that guy". The physical tools are easy to identify...he does not have a big time arm and can not take the lid off the defense. He struggles with deep out routes to the far side of the field and has a range of about 60yards max in the air...this is not debatable. However that is not to say he can not complete a long pass he. He runs well but is not dominant in that area. He is among the top guys of intermediate accuracy and has a great football IQ. Andy is two skillsets away from being a 5 tool guy. 

 Leadership skills are a bit more difficult to identify but here is my reason for saying he lacks in that department. Certain QB's have that swag. They run the Offense...if they don't like the play they change it....not change it to what the OC said they can. They have friction with the OC if the game plan sucks, they push back against the HC and the ownership if the culture is broken, they grab a WR or a OL by the facemask and demand they get their shit straight. When they have done all they can they are not afraid to draw a line in the sand. That is leadership...not giving a pep-talk.

Sorry if it seems like I am on the attack on you or any poster for being a fan of our QB. It is displaced frustration of the organization. I also know that Andy like our other QB's has been dealt a bad deal by being here. He will never shed the Bunguled stigma. Boomer could not do it, Carson has not done it. Those two guys did great things with different organization after leaving here but could not shake the Stink of MB.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-26-2017, 01:51 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Point is well taken. Frustration seems to be par for the course for us Bengals fans!

I guess my push back is more against the ownership than the QB. I think Andy is (as stated before) not in the TOP 20% or in the bottom 20%. He is good but I think he (like all the 60% middle tier guys) needs help. Grated some of that mid-tier group needs more help than others but they all need help. They will not be the reason a good team is horrible but they probably can not carry a good to to greatness. 

Andy and Carson both could not overcome the shortcoming of this organization to win a playoff game. Kenny and Boomer came close to the brass ring and that window slammed closed very quickly on both of them. They too could not overcome the shortcomings of this organization. 

As you stated I am as frustrated as any fan here. My frustration is magnified when I see great fans drinking the MB kool aid. Andy will have a very very very difficult time winning a championship here. I do not think he posses the same skill set as Carson or Boomer and they could not do it.  I think he and Kenny are very similar, I do not think Kenny would be a Top 20% guy in today's NFL either as it is totally different now. 

When fans are absolutely unrealistic about Andy's ability it just feeds in the the cycle of craziness. They are several posters  that would bet their bottom dollar that Andy is capable of being the Best QB in the league or even in the TOP 20%....that is so nutty it is laughable. 

He lacks the physical tools and the leadership skills to be "that guy". The physical tools are easy to identify...he does not have a big time arm and can not take the lid off the defense. He struggles with deep out routes to the far side of the field and has a range of about 60yards max in the air...this is not debatable. However that is not to say he can not complete a long pass he. He runs well but is not dominant in that area. He is among the top guys of intermediate accuracy and has a great football IQ. Andy is two skillsets away from being a 5 tool guy. 

 Leadership skills are a bit more difficult to identify but here is my reason for saying he lacks in that department. Certain QB's have that swag. They run the Offense...if they don't like the play they change it....not change it to what the OC said they can. They have friction with the OC if the game plan sucks, they push back against the HC and the ownership if the culture is broken, they grab a WR or a OL by the facemask and demand they get their shit straight. When they have done all they can they are not afraid to draw a line in the sand. That is leadership...not giving a pep-talk.

Sorry if it seems like I am on the attack on you or any poster for being a fan of our QB. It is displaced frustration of the organization. I also know that Andy like our other QB's has been dealt a bad deal by being here. He will never shed the Bunguled stigma. Boomer could not do it, Carson has not done it. Those two guys did great things with different organization after leaving here but could not shake the Stink of MB.

Well said, I couldn't agree more, although I have seen him get in Bodine's shit numerous times.  It seemed to me that Hue Jackson rubbed off on him some, and he could even calm Hue down some when he got flustered.  Other than that, spot on assessment about how MANY of us realistic fans feel.  Nice post sir. :andy:

['E']

(01-26-2017, 01:51 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Point is well taken. Frustration seems to be par for the course for us Bengals fans!

I guess my push back is more against the ownership than the QB. I think Andy is (as stated before) not in the TOP 20% or in the bottom 20%. He is good but I think he (like all the 60% middle tier guys) needs help. Grated some of that mid-tier group needs more help than others but they all need help. They will not be the reason a good team is horrible but they probably can not carry a good to to greatness. 

Andy and Carson both could not overcome the shortcoming of this organization to win a playoff game. Kenny and Boomer came close to the brass ring and that window slammed closed very quickly on both of them. They too could not overcome the shortcomings of this organization. 

As you stated I am as frustrated as any fan here. My frustration is magnified when I see great fans drinking the MB kool aid. Andy will have a very very very difficult time winning a championship here. I do not think he posses the same skill set as Carson or Boomer and they could not do it.  I think he and Kenny are very similar, I do not think Kenny would be a Top 20% guy in today's NFL either as it is totally different now. 

When fans are absolutely unrealistic about Andy's ability it just feeds in the the cycle of craziness. They are several posters  that would bet their bottom dollar that Andy is capable of being the Best QB in the league or even in the TOP 20%....that is so nutty it is laughable. 

He lacks the physical tools and the leadership skills to be "that guy". The physical tools are easy to identify...he does not have a big time arm and can not take the lid off the defense. He struggles with deep out routes to the far side of the field and has a range of about 60yards max in the air...this is not debatable. However that is not to say he can not complete a long pass he. He runs well but is not dominant in that area. He is among the top guys of intermediate accuracy and has a great football IQ. Andy is two skillsets away from being a 5 tool guy. 

 Leadership skills are a bit more difficult to identify but here is my reason for saying he lacks in that department. Certain QB's have that swag. They run the Offense...if they don't like the play they change it....not change it to what the OC said they can. They have friction with the OC if the game plan sucks, they push back against the HC and the ownership if the culture is broken, they grab a WR or a OL by the facemask and demand they get their shit straight. When they have done all they can they are not afraid to draw a line in the sand. That is leadership...not giving a pep-talk.

Sorry if it seems like I am on the attack on you or any poster for being a fan of our QB. It is displaced frustration of the organization. I also know that Andy like our other QB's has been dealt a bad deal by being here. He will never shed the Bunguled stigma. Boomer could not do it, Carson has not done it. Those two guys did great things with different organization after leaving here but could not shake the Stink of MB.

What he said.

[Shake n Blake]

Agree almost completely with Rhino's last post. While I think Dalton's arm is more "average" than "weak", it's not one of his strengths. It's not one of Brees' or Brady's either. No I'm not comparing Dalton to those guys, I'm just using them as examples of why arm strength is probably the most overrated aspect of QB play.

Cutler has arguably the strongest arm in the NFL, but his rumored weakness is that he can only read half the field. Dalton is better than him in every category outside of arm strength, and therefore a far superior QB. As far as leadership...I think it's overrated. I think QBs that win are viewed as leaders. Rodgers and Ryan were once questioned in that department. Does anyone question their leadership now?

I don't think Dalton will ever be a top 20% (top 6) QB, but he has the tools to play at a top 10 level. Like Rhino said, any QB outside the top 5-6 needs help. Heck, I'd even argue that ALL QBs need help to reach the SB. I can't think of any examples of a QB lifting a totally crappy team to a SB. Either way, Dalton is not going to get that help here.

If you look at all the Falcons have done to help Ryan over the last couple years, I can't envision the Bengals doing half of that.

[masterpanthera_t]

I think I agree with most of Rhinocero23's post, except I would say this. I don't believe there are more than 2-3 QB's in the league right now who have the swagger that was mentioned in his post, so it's not necessarily something that is the main factor (although for the ones who have it, it helps greatly - e.g. Brady, Rodgers, and maybe Roethlisberger). I guess I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but here's the main point: Andy could develop this swagger if/once he actually wins a super bowl, as these other QB's probably didn't get to their swaggering, until well after their success had been established and they had that ring in the bag. I do agree that Andy does not have the physical skill to simply take a game over or win a game all by himself, like some of these others can, but the swagger doesn't necessarily require this. It simply needs Super bowl success and the firm knowledge that you've been there before, you know what it takes, you're known as a winner and you can leverage this against your younger/under performing teammates. Without these things already in your record, it's hard to have this swagger. About the only few people I've seen have this swagger without SBs are guys like Boomer and Marino, but they had MVP's and league-wide respect as the top dog QB (in the case of Marino) going for them.

So I guess more than disagreeing, I'm adding nuance. Also stating that with wins, Dalton can become a leader by swagger more than the leader by example that he is currently.

Edit:
I will add that Elway (before he won the super bowl) probably had the swagger too, but I don't know for sure, because of his arm strength, clutch performances and toughness. And Boomer, was probably one of the few who had this swagger naturally as a character trait, as a force of personality, which you can still see when he does his commentary on TV. He is one of the fewest who even if he wasn't the greatest talent at QB (not saying he wasn't talented, but compared to Marino and Elway, wouldn't quite match up), his personality alone would make him a natural born leader.

[Brownshoe]

To say that the mid tier starts after 20% is a joke and you know it. The 7th best QB in the league isn't "mid tier". You only said top 20% so Dalton wouldn't be able to be in a upper tier.

[34blast]

(01-15-2017, 04:16 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Sir Tom Brady- 18/38 for 287 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs

Andy Dalton- 28/41 for 268 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

Dalton did this against the #1 defense in the NFL in their stadium, with no AJ, no Eifert, starting Cody Core for his first start in his career, and Jeremy Hill getting injured.  And don't act like the game wasn't important to the Texans.  Their divisional championship was on the line.  

Just saying.    :andy:

Faulting thinking to compare 1 game between a scrub and a hall of famer.

Let's be honest,  when we played Houston,  they sold out to stop the run.  When Brady played Houston their focus was on Brady.   Dalton can not carry a team like Brady or Rogers.  Never has, never will.  The book on Cincinnati is let Dalton try to beat you.  ON passing just stop AJ as best you can and stop the run.   For Cincy to win and Dalton to win,  everything has to be near perfect around him.    He will never beat good teams in the playoffs.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-26-2017, 01:51 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Point is well taken. Frustration seems to be par for the course for us Bengals fans!

I guess my push back is more against the ownership than the QB. I think Andy is (as stated before) not in the TOP 20% or in the bottom 20%. He is good but I think he (like all the 60% middle tier guys) needs help. Grated some of that mid-tier group needs more help than others but they all need help. They will not be the reason a good team is horrible but they probably can not carry a good to to greatness. 

Andy and Carson both could not overcome the shortcoming of this organization to win a playoff game. Kenny and Boomer came close to the brass ring and that window slammed closed very quickly on both of them. They too could not overcome the shortcomings of this organization. 

As you stated I am as frustrated as any fan here. My frustration is magnified when I see great fans drinking the MB kool aid. Andy will have a very very very difficult time winning a championship here. I do not think he posses the same skill set as Carson or Boomer and they could not do it.  I think he and Kenny are very similar, I do not think Kenny would be a Top 20% guy in today's NFL either as it is totally different now. 

When fans are absolutely unrealistic about Andy's ability it just feeds in the the cycle of craziness. They are several posters  that would bet their bottom dollar that Andy is capable of being the Best QB in the league or even in the TOP 20%....that is so nutty it is laughable. 

He lacks the physical tools and the leadership skills to be "that guy". The physical tools are easy to identify...he does not have a big time arm and can not take the lid off the defense. He struggles with deep out routes to the far side of the field and has a range of about 60yards max in the air...this is not debatable. However that is not to say he can not complete a long pass he. He runs well but is not dominant in that area. He is among the top guys of intermediate accuracy and has a great football IQ. Andy is two skillsets away from being a 5 tool guy. 

 Leadership skills are a bit more difficult to identify but here is my reason for saying he lacks in that department. Certain QB's have that swag. They run the Offense...if they don't like the play they change it....not change it to what the OC said they can. They have friction with the OC if the game plan sucks, they push back against the HC and the ownership if the culture is broken, they grab a WR or a OL by the facemask and demand they get their shit straight. When they have done all they can they are not afraid to draw a line in the sand. That is leadership...not giving a pep-talk.

Sorry if it seems like I am on the attack on you or any poster for being a fan of our QB. It is displaced frustration of the organization. I also know that Andy like our other QB's has been dealt a bad deal by being here. He will never shed the Bunguled stigma. Boomer could not do it, Carson has not done it. Those two guys did great things with different organization after leaving here but could not shake the Stink of MB.

Don't apologize for having a different opinion!  I just think the frustration that is directed at Dalton in misplaced.  Your point about Boomer and Anderson is interesting...having each come within a hair of winning it all.  Those teams were loaded with talent, but the one thing they had that this team sorely lacks is innovation.

Those offenses were cutting edge.  Sam Wyche took an already innovative offense and took it to the next level.  The no-huddle?  Do you know how many people still think Buffalo created that?  

What type of innovation has this team shown?  The closest thing I would offer was Aaron Rogers tipping his hat at Zimmer for his double-A gap blitzing scheme.  No one has seen anything creative from the offense.  The closest thing was some wacky spread formation where it yielded ONE big play to Eifert down the seam.  One, in several years. 

The way the rest of the league is using two and three TE sets (especially in the red zone) and rub routes with crossing patterns (a steeler staple) yet the Bengals continue to operate in such a yestertech offense.  

Dalton was on pace for an incredible 2015 with Hue's offense, which I thought was "good enough".  Then, Cleveland stepped in and (wisely) didn't let Hue leave without signing with them.  Despite the "succession plan", Hue didn't wait and took that job.  And the Bengals offense suffered because of it.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-26-2017, 02:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think Dalton will ever be a top 20% (top 6) QB, but he has the tools to play at a top 10 level. Like Rhino said, any QB outside the top 5-6 needs help. Heck, I'd even argue that ALL QBs need help to reach the SB. I can't think of any examples of a QB lifting a totally crappy team to a SB. Either way, Dalton is not going to get that help here.

If you look at all the Falcons have done to help Ryan over the last couple years, I can't envision the Bengals doing half of that.

The NFL had been slobbering over Andrew Luck ever since he entered the league.  He has had weapons, a suspect offensive line, and not much of a running game (sound familiar?).  He was the HIGHEST rated prospect coming out of college EVER in a number of war rooms.  Yet, he is struggling to make the playoffs.  Why?  Because he can't do it by himself.  

Amazingly, he has taken an absolute beating while Dalton has been able to protect himself to an extent.  I would argue a part of that is Dalton's quick decisions and release.  Regardless, I think Luck is a perfect example that it takes an entire team to make it to the big game.  

Once Seattle lost a lot of its offensive line, Wilson regressed.  Look at how many playoff games Phillip Rivers has made.  He was a heck of a QB.  When Manning won two Super Bowls, how many people thought that he was suddenly not a turnover machine and they won because of him?  Sure, he was a part of it, but like so many other examples, it takes a really strong supporting cast for all NFL QBs to make the Super Bowl or to even make the playoffs.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-25-2017, 12:41 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: The only place Dalton was considered to be a viable MVP candidate was on this board. He was an "aslo ran" when mentioned to round out a list...BTW there is a fourth place and a fifth place so on and so on. 

Last year (like every year) there are only two considerations...Andy was not one of them. Was he having a good season...absolutely. Was it MVP worthy...no. Would he have finished the year stronger or stayed true to form and wilted when it counted...no one knows.  

Also please tell me what QB's would not look great with the type of protections you mention. You act like only Andy would excel under those conditions...lol. The question is not what can a QB do when playing in a vacuum, it is what can he do when the shit is falling apart. Typical excuses from the Andy is a Top tier QB crowd..."if Andy had all day, the best receivers in the game, playing against only 3 guys on defense he could be a Top 5 QB!!!!"

I seen later you changed your tone so i won't bash the hell out of this post Rhino!!!