Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-17-2024, 11:47 AM)GMDino Wrote: Since I'm not an expert in everything legally involved in every state and jurisdiction I guess my question is: Are there specific circumstances for charges like "murder" vs "involuntary homicide" vs some other charge where the suspects actions resulted in a death?
I'm actually going to answer your questions instead of being baited by you. In so doing, note I'm not an expert in Missouri state law, but I doubt very much it differs radically from CA law in this regard. Penal code violations tend to have the same standards when you're talking about "red meat" felonies like robbery, murder and assault. If you're speaking to this specific incident, it would still be first degree murder. First degree murder requires pre-planning or a "depraved heart". Depraved heart being defined as engaging in a behavior so wantonly dangerous as to be likely to cause death. Shooting into a crowd of people, even if you have a specific target, will result in first degree murder charges due to the act having such an obviously lethal likely outcome. Where it would get interesting, from a legal standpoint, is if the murdered victim was struck by return fire from the initial intended victim. I'd still be very comfortable charging first degree murder, especially if this shooting, as I think is almost a dead certainty, is gang related.
Quote:If you and I have a shootout over the last donut and accidentally shoot Dill who is walking by the building is that the same as aiming at Dill and killing him?
It depends on the circumstances. If you fired one shot at "person X" (I wouldn't want to be accused of threatening to kill another board member here), missed and it went through a wall and struck the victim it probably would not be charged as first degree murder. You had no intent to hit the victim and didn't know the victim was there. Contrast that with you both being on a busy street when the argument started and you fire multiple rounds at "person X" who is standing directly in front of a crowd of people. You're actions have such obviously lethal consequences for anyone standing behind person X that you would almost certainly be charged with first degree murder. I'll add that a DA could still make such an argument in the first scenario, but it's far less likely. If they did it would likely be a tactic to get an easier plea deal out of you.
Quote:And do we know the age of the suspects? I've been busy and we're leaving for the weekend so I didn't read any links yet this morning. Can we charge 15 year olds as adults in KC? 13?
Again, there may be a difference between Missouri and California law here, but I doubt it, and if there is it wouldn't be substantial. In CA anyone 14 years or older (under fourteen being legally defined as a child) can be charged as an adult, or that process started, if they commit a crime listed under 707(b) WIC (welfare and institutions code). These crimes are generally what you would typically think they would be. Murder, robbery, felony assault, carjacking, rape, arson, kidnapping. Here is a link with a list, sans the PC numbers for most of the offenses listed.
https://www.keglawyers.com/juvenile-strike-crimes-wic-707b
In CA you now have to go through a trial process in the juvenile system called a, "Transfer to Court of Criminal Jurisdiction" hearing. At the end of that process the judge decides if the minor remains in delinquency court or is transferred to adult. The DA used to be able to direct file on this type of case, skipping the delinquency court entirely, but that has been changed.
Quote:Those are serious questions that I do not know the answers to.
Anyway when we get settled I'll come back to the "Bengals Wanna Be Lawyer Subforum" and I'm sure by then there will be an answer backed with links and backing information. 
An interesting statement, considering the Public Defender that used to haunt this sub-forum had to be corrected on basic criminal law by someone you'd likely slap that label on. Alas, we will struggle ever forward.
Quote:That was the joke because I DO know that won't happen. 
![[Image: c2810f2b-ff75-40f8-a6a5-aa4473788c50_text.gif]](https://y.yarn.co/c2810f2b-ff75-40f8-a6a5-aa4473788c50_text.gif)
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-17-2024, 10:14 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Ah yeah good point. Meanwhile I live in an area so red if someone shot me the DA would probably let them off with the "he looked like he could have been Mexican or an Arab" defense.
Having no real first hand experience with them, I do wonder if those type of Mississippi Burning jurisdictions still exist.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-17-2024, 10:14 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Ah yeah good point. Meanwhile I live in an area so red if someone shot me the DA would probably let them off with the "he looked like he could have been Mexican or an Arab" defense.
They said he was an illegal immigrant too.
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media0.giphy.com/media/1kwsTjL8BNqlszNtnCE/giphy.gif)
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-18-2024, 10:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: They said he was an illegal immigrant too.
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
It's ok, they'll run a retraction like they did with Sandman. I seem to recall you found that a sufficient resolution.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
Starting to see some info on how these two suspects might be charged as adults from people with actual knowledge of how it works there.
https://abc17news.com/news/missouri/2024/02/18/what-it-could-take-for-the-two-juveniles-charged-in-kansas-city-parade-shooting-to-be-charged-as-adults/
Quote:What it could take for the two juveniles charged in Kansas City parade shooting to be charged as adults
0:00/ 0:00
By Jazsmin Halliburton
[color=var(--dark-text-on-background-color, #000000)]FOLLOWFOLLOW "" TO RECEIVE NOTIFICATIONS ABOUT NEW PAGES ON "".
February 18, 2024 9:49 PM
Published February 18, 2024 6:46 PM
[color=var(--dark-text-on-background-color, #000000)]1![[Image: comment_icon.png]](https://ktvz.b-cdn.net/2022/06/comment_icon.png) [/color]
Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on Linkedin[/color]
COLUMBIA, Mo. (KMIZ)
A lot of evidence will have to be processed to determine what it could take for the two juveniles charged in the Kansas City parade shooting to be charged as adults.
On Friday, police revealed two juveniles were charged with crimes connected to the mass shooting at the Kansas City Chiefs’ Super Bowl rally.
Lisa Lopez-Galvan was killed in the shooting and 22 others were injured, more than half of those injured were children.
Defendants age 17 and under in Missouri are typically adjudicated through the juvenile system, which is far more private than the system for adults. Names of the accused are not released, nor are police documents such as probable cause statements.
In some cases that involve serious crimes, juveniles can be tried as adults, but former prosecutor Bill Tackett said it will require a significant investigation in this case.
"If they can tie one of the juveniles or both of them to the death of the woman and then multiple other victims, and there's any kind of problem in the past with these young people, then a certification would seem like it would be in order," Tackett said.
Tackett added that you have to look at the severity of the crime and determine how many people were involved. Investigators will need to find out who actually did the shooting, what bullet killed Lopez-Galvan and how many of the injured were critical to determine the level of culpability of these juveniles.
Prosecutors in cases dealing with juveniles can not certify people under the age of 18 as adults on their own.
"They make a decision as to whether to do that. Then they go in front of a judge to do the actual certification, and then a judge approves what the prosecutor is recommending," said Tackett.
Federal law prohibits the death penalty for anyone under age 18 at the time of the crime.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
Just as some background info, KC has also had a problem with gun violence.
https://www.komu.com/news/things-to-know-about-the-shooting-at-the-kansas-city-chiefs-super-bowl-celebration/article_a37b174e-e44a-55bc-ad98-3ce366a13f17.html
Quote:Things to know about the shooting at the Kansas City Chiefs' Super Bowl celebration
Members of the Kansas City community have gathered to “demand a future free from gun violence” a day after authorities announced two juveniles had been detained on gun-related and resisting arrest charges in the shooting after the Chiefs’ Super Bowl celebration
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — Members of the Kansas City community gathered Saturday afternoon to “demand a future free from gun violence” a day after authorities announced that two juveniles had been detained on gun-related and resisting arrest charges in the shooting after the Chiefs’ Super Bowl celebration.
The shooting Wednesday outside the city's historic Union Station was a tragic end to the happy occasion that brought an estimated 1 million people to the city. One woman was killed and 22 people were injured — about half of whom were under the age of 16.
A children's hospital treating 11 kids who were wounded in the shooting announced Saturday that all patients had been discharged. Victims were taken to several hospitals. Most of them have been released.
Also in the days since the shooting, the champion Chiefs have shown their support for the victims by fundraising, donating and visiting the wounded in the hospital.
Here’s what we know:
THE INVESTIGATION
A news release Friday from the Jackson County Family Court said the juveniles detained on gun-related and resisting arrest charges were being held at a juvenile detention center. Additional charges are expected as the investigation continues.
Police said a dispute may have led to the shooting, which happened despite the presence of more than 800 police officers.
Police initially detained three juveniles but released one who they determined wasn’t involved in the shooting. Police are looking for others who may have been involved and are calling for witnesses, victims and people with cellphone video of the violence to call a dedicated hotline.
The 22 people injured range in age from 8 to 47, according to police Chief Stacey Graves. Lisa Lopez-Galvan, a mother of two and the host of “Taste of Tejano,” was killed, her radio station, KKFI-FM, confirmed.
Graves said law enforcement's response was “exemplary” and that parade attendees also responded when gunshots rang out at the end of the celebration.
A widely circulated video shows Trey Filter, a 40-year-old fan from Wichita, Kansas, and another man tackling an armed person fleeing amidst the “mess starting to unfold," Filter said. It happened in seconds, he said, and they kept him pinned down until officers arrived. The person's firearm was knocked loose. Graves indicated police were working to determine if the person tackled was among those detained.
A statement indicated police recovered “several firearms."
CHIEFS REACHING OUT
The Chiefs have coordinated with the local branch of charity organization United Way to create an emergency fund for victims, first responders and violence prevention organizations. They announced a $200,000 donation in conjunction with the Hunt Family Foundation and the NFL.
A local T-shirt company selling a red, yellow and white shirt emblazoned with “Kansas City Strong” said it would donate proceeds to the fund. A bakery in a surrounding suburb decorated cookies with messages of “KC Strong" to raise money for the cause.
Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs quarterback and Super Bowl MVP, donated $50,000 to the fund. He also paid a hospital visit to two girls, 8 and 10, from the same family who were recovering from gunshot wounds, according to a family statement.
“We want to give a personal thank you to the staff of Children’s Mercy Hospital and Patrick & Brittany Mahomes for their outpouring care, love, and support,” the Reyes family wrote.
GoFundMe pages set up for the Lopez-Galvan and the Reyes family topped $330,000 and $180,000, respectively.
Taylor Swift was among those donating to funds for Lopez-Galvan's family. Swift, who is dating Kansas City Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce, made two $50,000 donations Friday.
CITY’S HISTORY AND STATE LAWS
Wednesday’s shooting occurred in a state with few gun regulations and historic tension over how cities handle crime.
Kansas City has struggled with gun violence, and in 2020 it was among nine cities chosen by the U.S. Justice Department in an effort to crack down on violent crime. In 2023, the city matched its record with 182 homicides, most of which involved guns.
Lucas has joined with mayors across the country in calling for new laws to reduce gun violence, including mandating universal background checks.
But what, if any, action Missouri’s Republican-led Legislature would take in response to the shooting is unclear. Efforts to make it harder to own and possess firearms are unlikely to pass in the state’s GOP-led Legislature.
Advocates for tighter restrictions on guns organized the rally in Kansas City on Saturday, near where the shooting took place. Video posted on social media shows several dozen people chanting, “Enough is enough!” Some held signs calling for gun regulations.
RETHINKING SPORTS CELEBRATIONS?
The shooting was the latest at a sports celebration in the U.S. A shooting wounded several people last year in Denver after the Nuggets’ NBA championship.
Kansas City’s mayor and security experts say it could be time to rethink championship celebrations. Lucas said Thursday that the city will continue to celebrate its victories, and next month’s St. Patrick’s Day parade will go on as scheduled.
But he told local television station KMBC that if the Chiefs win another Super Bowl, it might be better to have a smaller party at their home stadium, where security can be managed more easily.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 27,929
Threads: 40
Reputation:
121617
Joined: May 2015
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Mood:
(02-18-2024, 10:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: They said he was an illegal immigrant too.
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I heard he is a trans illegal immigrant who was caught with a briefcase of 10 million fake votes for Biden and proof Obama was born in Zimbabwe and the stolen perfect healthcare plan Trump was going to release in 2 weeks and the script for the most recent super bowl and the contract Taylor swift signed with satan himself.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-19-2024, 11:00 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I heard he is a trans illegal immigrant who was caught with a briefcase of 10 million fake votes for Biden and proof Obama was born in Zimbabwe and the stolen perfect healthcare plan Trump was going to release in 2 weeks and the script for the most recent super bowl and the contract Taylor swift signed with satan himself.
You had me until the healthcare plan. He keeps that in his coat pocket at all times...just waiting for the right time to spring it on Sleepy Joe.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-19-2024, 10:24 AM)GMDino Wrote: Starting to see some info on how these two suspects might be charged as adults from people with actual knowledge of how it works there.
https://abc17news.com/news/missouri/2024/02/18/what-it-could-take-for-the-two-juveniles-charged-in-kansas-city-parade-shooting-to-be-charged-as-adults/
Then proceeds to post an article saying the exact same things, with far less detail than I provided . I'll give you this, you've got smarmy down pat. It'll be really interesting watching everything I said about this play out in the exact way I said they would and you doing everything you can to not acknowledge it. Please never change.
Posts: 4,142
Threads: 96
Reputation:
10559
Joined: May 2015
Location: cincinnati
Mood: None
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-20-2024, 06:33 PM)Goalpost Wrote: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39564069/two-adults-charged-murder-chiefs-parade-shooting
Well now we know why the two minors were not charged with murder...they didn't kill anyone.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-20-2024, 06:33 PM)Goalpost Wrote: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39564069/two-adults-charged-murder-chiefs-parade-shooting
Like I said, it would be interesting to see how they would charge the killer if the one who fired the fatal shot was reacting to being shot at. I guess second degree murder it is.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-20-2024, 08:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/us/two-men-charged-with-murder-in-kansas-city-parade-shooting/index.html
The murder weapon was stolen. If only we had a law against that.
No it wasn't.
Quote:A Glock 9mm handgun found on the ground near Mays contained six rounds in a 15-round capacity magazine, according to the documents. The firearm had been stolen in Kansas City, Missouri, the documents state.
Miller, who had a gunshot wound, was tackled and disarmed by a witness who saw him carrying a handgun, according to the statement. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, he said he was armed with a Taurus G3 9mm handgun and said he returned fire after he saw someone shooting at him, according to the statement.
A .38-caliber class bullet was recovered during an autopsy of Lopez-Galvan, and a ballistic comparison of the bullet determined it was fired from the Taurus weapon, according to the statement.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-20-2024, 09:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: No it wasn't.
![[Image: nerd-ackchyually.gif]](https://media1.tenor.com/m/tv3Yr2A2I4kAAAAC/nerd-ackchyually.gif)
My bad, the guy who started the gunfight had a stolen weapon. We don't know about the Taurus. I'm sure it was legally purchased and owned by the perp.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-20-2024, 09:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:
My bad, the guy who started the gunfight had a stolen weapon. We don't know about the Taurus. I'm sure it was legally purchased and owned by the perp.
Weird way to say you were wrong, and/or didn't read the article completely.
There was a gun that had been reported stolen found next to the suspect that allegedly drew first.
We do not know about the Taurus as it was not stated in the article that it too was reported stolen, only that he admitted to using that gun and it was shown to be the gun that fired the fatal shot.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-20-2024, 10:24 PM)GMDino Wrote: Weird way to say you were wrong.
You mean actually saying exactly that? You should try it sometime.
Quote:There was a gun that had been reported stolen found next to the suspect that allegedly drew first.
Yes, the Glock, as I said in the post you just quoted.
Quote:We do not know about the Taurus as it was not stated in the article that it too was reported stolen, only that he admitted to using that gun and it was shown to be the gun that fired the fatal shot.
Yes, as I said in the post you just quoted.
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-20-2024, 11:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You mean actually saying exactly that? You should try it sometime.
Yes, the Glock, as I said in the post you just quoted.
Yes, as I said in the post you just quoted.
No, you made a series of assumptions saying:
1) The person who drew first had the stolen weapon. That is not in the article.
2) That the person the stolen weapon was next to drew first. That is not in the article.
3) Seeming to imply that the gun that fired the fatal shot was probably stolen also. (At least it read that way: "I'm sure...") Also not in the article.
If we want the media to be "truthful" and get the facts right then we need to also be right when we cite them as sources versus when we post our own opinions without the stories/facts to back them up yet.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
Posts: 10,916
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43135
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-21-2024, 12:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: No, you made a series of assumptions saying:
No, I made a mistake. A mistake is not an assumption. For example, you just made a mistake when you said I made an assumption. You did not make an assumption when you said I made an assumption.
Quote:1) The person who drew first had the stolen weapon. That is not in the article.
Actually, it is.
Mays was found wounded and taken to a hospital for treatment. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, Mays told detectives he started shooting because the others said “I’m going to get you,” the statement says.
“Stupid, man. Just pulled a gun out and started shooting,” Mays allegedly said, according to the probable cause statement. “I shouldn’t have done that. Just being stupid.”
A Glock 9mm handgun found on the ground near Mays contained six rounds in a 15-round capacity magazine, according to the documents. The firearm had been stolen in Kansas City, Missouri, the documents state.
Quote:2) That the person the stolen weapon was next to drew first. That is not in the article.
Actually, it is.
Mays was found wounded and taken to a hospital for treatment. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, Mays told detectives he started shooting because the others said “I’m going to get you,” the statement says.
“Stupid, man. Just pulled a gun out and started shooting,” Mays allegedly said, according to the probable cause statement. “I shouldn’t have done that. Just being stupid.”
A Glock 9mm handgun found on the ground near Mays contained six rounds in a 15-round capacity magazine, according to the documents. The firearm had been stolen in Kansas City, Missouri, the documents state.
Quote:3) Seeming to imply that the gun that fired the fatal shot was probably stolen also. (At least it read that way: "I'm sure...") Also not in the article.
Nope, that was where I made the mistake, not the assumption. The Taurus, which was not identified as stolen, fired the fatal shot. The Taurus fired by Miller.
Miller, who had a gunshot wound, was tackled and disarmed by a witness who saw him carrying a handgun, according to the statement. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, he said he was armed with a Taurus G3 9mm handgun and said he returned fire after he saw someone shooting at him, according to the statement.
A .38-caliber class bullet was recovered during an autopsy of Lopez-Galvan, and a ballistic comparison of the bullet determined it was fired from the Taurus weapon, according to the statement.
Quote:If we want the media to be "truthful" and get the facts right then we need to also be right when we cite them as sources versus when we post our own opinions without the stories/facts to back them up yet.
Oh my, this didn't age well for you. You actually had me making a mistake. Then in your rush to get me online you made numerous mistakes yourself. Mistakes, not assumptions. Thank you for not only making my error now seem trivial, but giving me a good laugh in the process.
Goodnight, sweet prince. 
Posts: 38,437
Threads: 1,699
Reputation:
55241
Joined: May 2015
Location: SW PA
Mood:
(02-21-2024, 01:22 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, I made a mistake. A mistake is not an assumption. For example, you just made a mistake when you said I made an assumption. You did not make an assumption when you said I made an assumption.
Actually, it is.
Mays was found wounded and taken to a hospital for treatment. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, Mays told detectives he started shooting because the others said “I’m going to get you,” the statement says.
“Stupid, man. Just pulled a gun out and started shooting,” Mays allegedly said, according to the probable cause statement. “I shouldn’t have done that. Just being stupid.”
A Glock 9mm handgun found on the ground near Mays contained six rounds in a 15-round capacity magazine, according to the documents. The firearm had been stolen in Kansas City, Missouri, the documents state.
Actually, it is.
Mays was found wounded and taken to a hospital for treatment. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, Mays told detectives he started shooting because the others said “I’m going to get you,” the statement says.
“Stupid, man. Just pulled a gun out and started shooting,” Mays allegedly said, according to the probable cause statement. “I shouldn’t have done that. Just being stupid.”
A Glock 9mm handgun found on the ground near Mays contained six rounds in a 15-round capacity magazine, according to the documents. The firearm had been stolen in Kansas City, Missouri, the documents state.
Nope, that was where I made the mistake, not the assumption. The Taurus, which was not identified as stolen, fired the fatal shot. The Taurus fired by Miller.
Miller, who had a gunshot wound, was tackled and disarmed by a witness who saw him carrying a handgun, according to the statement. In a hospital interview two days after the shooting, he said he was armed with a Taurus G3 9mm handgun and said he returned fire after he saw someone shooting at him, according to the statement.
A .38-caliber class bullet was recovered during an autopsy of Lopez-Galvan, and a ballistic comparison of the bullet determined it was fired from the Taurus weapon, according to the statement.
Oh my, this didn't age well for you. You actually had me making a mistake. Then in your rush to get me online you made numerous mistakes yourself. Mistakes, not assumptions. Thank you for not only making my error now seem trivial, but giving me a good laugh in the process.
Goodnight, sweet prince.
Oddly the article still does not say Mays was the first shooter. Just what his told the police that he was stupid for stating shooting. Now that kind of assumption is easy to make based on what we know so far but it is still only an assumption as the article does not say he was the first shooter. That's why I didn't say you were wrong to make that assumption, just that it was an assumption and not what the article said/
I'm going with what the article literally says. If the next one says Mays shot first then that is what I will go with too.
The article says it continues to look for others involved. Until that is over we do not know who started it. Maybe they were the only shooters. In that case your assumption is correct.
As to your "mistake", yes you were wrong about the gun that fired the fatal shot being the one reported as tole, but as I said your line "I'm sure..." read as sarcastic in that you decided this was a gang bang spray shooting the day of so why would you really be "sure" the gun was legally obtained. That is what I said was an assumption.
I made no assumptions. I repeated what was in the article.
It's not a gotcha. It's not personal. It's trying to stick with facts as they are reported. Something we have all said should be done more, especially around here.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
