For those of you wanting to Make America Great Again

[HarleyDog]

(06-25-2024, 11:36 AM)Dill Wrote: Which foreign adversaries get money from us, then drag us into war?   Which take our money and then try to kill us? 

Iran for one. They are behind the Hamas funding. Now we are giving military aid to Israel, who were attacked with money we gave to Iran. 

Quote:Is supporting Israel crucial to the US national interest? They are dragging us into a war, right? 

Isriel is not dragging us into war. They are requesting assistance. For now. But you never know. Israel has been one of our closest allies for years. 

Quote:What message does it send out allies, if we do support them? 

Not sure what you're asking here. It's pretty simple the message sent would be that we support our allies. 

[Dill]

(06-25-2024, 11:51 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Dill Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-For-those-of-you-wanting-to-Make-America-Great-Again?pid=1488583#pid1488583][/url]Which foreign adversaries get money from us, then drag us into war?   Which take our money and then try to kill us? 

Iran for one. They are behind the Hamas funding. Now we are giving military aid to Israel, who were attacked with money we gave to Iran. 

Yo, thanks for the response, H-Dog, but this doesn't sound right I'm wondering what your sources are.  

What money of ours did Iran take? How are they dragging us into a war? 

So far as I know, Israel is not being attacked with money we gave Iran. Who says it is? 

(06-25-2024, 11:51 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Quote:Is supporting Israel crucial to the US national interest? They are dragging us into a war, right? 

Isriel is not dragging us into war. They are requesting assistance. For now. But you never know. Israel has been one of our closest allies for years. 

Israel has been our most expensive "ally." Since 1980 we've give them over 3 billion a year in assistance, far more than anyone else. And we give Egypt over 2 billion a year to not attack Israel. This aid is leverage which could have forced Israel to the negotiating table with the PLO/PA long before 2005, when the stage was set for a succession of Gaza wars. Now we are stuck supplying an aggressor nation as it drops 2,000 lib bombs on civilians and blocks aid to starving children.  We protected them from an Iranian drone attack which Israel provoked. This makes the US a target too. What do we receive in return, if our most expensive ally pursues policies which we don't agree with and which make us targets too? 

(06-25-2024, 11:51 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Quote:What message does it send out allies, if we do support them? 

Not sure what you're asking here. It's pretty simple the message sent would be that we support our allies. 

Praising authoritarian leaders like Putin, Erdogan, MBS, Xi and Kim, while ignoring or denigrating democratic allies and alliances 
is not sending a "pretty simple message." Quite the opposite. 

The dictators love to see a divided US falling into the hands of an autocrat who understands them and thinks similarly. Our democratic allies wonder how
stable an ally the US is.  When Trump, on an international stage, sides with Putin over US intel agencies, the message sent is that the US president can be
played by a dictator, leader of NATO's prime adversary.  That has to send a shudder through all the other countries' intel agencies who cooperate with us.

Same when the US pulls together a massive international agreement, bringing Russia, China, Iran, Britain, Germany, France and the EU all to the same table in an agreement which worked as intended when adopted, to the advantage of all parties. The Iran Deal was one of the most amazing feats of diplomacy in US history, and then Trump just breaks it. What message doe that send?  It's not just a green light to Teheran's nuclear program and thumb in the eye of our allies.  It's the US destroying its own credibility and power to get  even the most dangerous and disruptive players to sit down and play nice.  And it makes the world more costly for the US, not cheaper.  I't not "Making America Great Again" for sure. 

[HarleyDog]

(06-26-2024, 02:23 PM)Dill Wrote: Yo, thanks for the response, H-Dog, but this doesn't sound right I'm wondering what your sources are.  

What money of ours did Iran take? How are they dragging us into a war? 

So far as I know, Israel is not being attacked with money we gave Iran. Who says it is? 

6 billion prisoner swap. It wasn't used for humanitarian aid.

Quote:Israel has been our most expensive "ally." Since 1980 we've give them over 3 billion a year in assistance, far more than anyone else. And we give Egypt over 2 billion a year to not attack Israel. This aid is leverage which could have forced Israel to the negotiating table with the PLO/PA long before 2005, when the stage was set for a succession of Gaza wars. Now we are stuck supplying an aggressor nation as it drops 2,000 lib bombs on civilians and blocks aid to starving children.  We protected them from an Iranian drone attack which Israel provoked. This makes the US a target too. What do we receive in return, if our most expensive ally pursues policies which we don't agree with and which make us targets too? 

Civillians in which the enemy hides within crowd, under the hospitals, in neighborhoods, etc, but also civilians which voted Hamas into power. They are not all innocent. And, it's sucks you will accuse Isriel of blocking aid, but not mention Hamas stealing the same aid from the Men, Women and Children it was intended.

Quote:Same when the US pulls together a massive international agreement, bringing Russia, China, Iran, Britain, Germany, France and the EU all to the same table in an agreement which worked as intended when adopted, to the advantage of all parties. The Iran Deal was one of the most amazing feats of diplomacy in US history, and then Trump just breaks it. What message doe that send? 

It was a dumb deal. You keep forgetting Iran is a terrorist hot bed, and the country themselves seek the destruction of Jews.

Quote: It's not just a green light to Teheran's nuclear program and thumb in the eye of our allies.  It's the US destroying its own credibility and power to get  even the most dangerous and disruptive players to sit down and play nice.  And it makes the world more costly for the US, not cheaper.  I't not "Making America Great Again" for sure. 

I need a little more info on the bolded because I don't see it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-26-2024, 02:23 PM)Dill Wrote: Yo, thanks for the response, H-Dog, but this doesn't sound right I'm wondering what your sources are.  

What money of ours did Iran take? How are they dragging us into a war? 

So far as I know, Israel is not being attacked with money we gave Iran. Who says it is? 


Israel has been our most expensive "ally." Since 1980 we've give them over 3 billion a year in assistance, far more than anyone else. And we give Egypt over 2 billion a year to not attack Israel. This aid is leverage which could have forced Israel to the negotiating table with the PLO/PA long before 2005, when the stage was set for a succession of Gaza wars. Now we are stuck supplying an aggressor nation as it drops 2,000 lib bombs on civilians and blocks aid to starving children.  We protected them from an Iranian drone attack which Israel provoked. This makes the US a target too. What do we receive in return, if our most expensive ally pursues policies which we don't agree with and which make us targets too? 


Praising authoritarian leaders like Putin, Erdogan, MBS, Xi and Kim, while ignoring or denigrating democratic allies and alliances 
is not sending a "pretty simple message." Quite the opposite. 

The dictators love to see a divided US falling into the hands of an autocrat who understands them and thinks similarly. Our democratic allies wonder how
stable an ally the US is.  When Trump, on an international stage, sides with Putin over US intel agencies, the message sent is that the US president can be
played by a dictator, leader of NATO's prime adversary.  That has to send a shudder through all the other countries' intel agencies who cooperate with us.

Same when the US pulls together a massive international agreement, bringing Russia, China, Iran, Britain, Germany, France and the EU all to the same table in an agreement which worked as intended when adopted, to the advantage of all parties. The Iran Deal was one of the most amazing feats of diplomacy in US history, and then Trump just breaks it. What message doe that send?  It's not just a green light to Teheran's nuclear program and thumb in the eye of our allies.  It's the US destroying its own credibility and power to get  even the most dangerous and disruptive players to sit down and play nice.  And it makes the world more costly for the US, not cheaper.  I't not "Making America Great Again" for sure. 

Israel is not an aggressor nation.  Your continued attempts to gaslight people into believing that doesn't make it a fact.  

[Dill]

(06-27-2024, 12:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: 6 billion prisoner swap. It wasn't used for humanitarian aid.

So far as I know, it's still sitting in Qatar and has not been dispersed.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/us-qatar-agree-not-release-iran-6-billion-prisoner-swap-rcna120135

And it wasn't "our" money, it was Iran's, generated by the oil waiver Trump gave to certain nations.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/how-donald-trumps-oil-waiver-gave-iran-6-billion/ar-AA1i382m

(06-27-2024, 12:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: .Now we are stuck supplying an aggressor nation as it drops 2,000 lib bombs on civilians and blocks aid to starving children.

Civillians in which the enemy hides within crowd, under the hospitals, in neighborhoods, etc, but also civilians which voted Hamas into power. They are not all innocent. And, it's sucks you will accuse Isriel of blocking aid, but not mention Hamas stealing the same aid from the Men, Women and Children it was intended.

Israeli forces dressed as civilian women and medics kill 3 militants in a West Bank hospital
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92
The notion Hamas is somehow alone in violating international laws against the use of civilians as shields or "hiding among civilians" is probably the biggest coup of IDF propaganda, at least in the US. 

What makes Israel the aggressor nation in this case is that it was founded by hundreds of thousands of Jews who came from Europe and then took Palestinian land by violence. It's not like the Jews were there and it's the Palestinians who came from Europe, right?  Gaza refugees are a reminder and a reminder of that dispossession. Since 1967 it has been controlled by Israel, like an open air prison--and ILLEGALLY according to international law.  

Most of those alive in Gaza now, and the bulk of those killed by Israeli bombs, are too young to have voted for Hamas. As for those who did and are not fighters, they are still civilians under international law. And the bombs killing those thousands of women and children are ours.

So far as I know, the reason for starvation is that mass amounts of food--TRUCKLOADS-- are blocked by the hundreds from getting in Gaza. That's why the US built a pier, to get around Israel. We expect the IDF to accuse Hamas of stealing food, but so far as I know, that has not been confirmed by any outside agency. But there is no organized state and police in Gaza; armed gangs can take food. Desperately starving people will fight over it. Sometimes Israelis open fire on crowds as well. The starvation is because of the blockade, not because some actors inside Gaza can steal a bit of what gets through.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-03-30/man-made-famine-gaza-aid-explainer

(06-27-2024, 12:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Same when the US pulls together a massive international agreement, bringing Russia, China, Iran, Britain, Germany, France and the EU all to the same table in an agreement which worked as intended when adopted, to the advantage of all parties. The Iran Deal was one of the most amazing feats of diplomacy in US history, and then Trump just breaks it. What message doe that send?
It was a dumb deal. You keep forgetting Iran is a terrorist hot bed, and the country themselves seek the destruction of Jews.
 It's not just a green light to Teheran's nuclear program and thumb in the eye of our allies.  
I need a little more info on the bolded because I don't see it.

Most of the world, including Israel's Mossad, thought it was a good deal. If Iran is a "terrorist hot bed" then you don't want them getting a nuke. 

Also, the deal empowered moderates in Iran; and it was assumed that integrating them back into the international sysem would strengthen them even 
further. The big objection from the US right was that Iran would get billions of its own money back and use that for "terrorist" support.

The deal extended breakout time from 6-8 weeks to a year, and allowed for invasive inspections.  Our allies had begun opening factories in Iran 
otherwise reaping benefits. E.g., France was building a car factory there, investing billions. It looked like peace was paying off to the Iranians.

Then Trump broke the deal: the Iranian moderates are disgraced and the hardliners in firmer control; our allies lost their investments and a future market--Thanks MAGA!--Iran's breakout time is now ZERO; and it gets to keep all those billions released back to it that the US hard right was complaining about.  

Now the Gulf is completely re-configured, with Iran supplying Russia with arms, and working together with China to rebuild its treaty/diplomatic architecture. It is now much more difficult, if not impossible, for the US to exert leadership in the region and bring everyone to the table. Russia, China, and Iran are way out of reach. If you were a French car company or British oil, you'd have to think twice before following the US into that sort of regional deal again, not knowing if the next president would view US credibility as a plus. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-27-2024, 07:23 PM)Dill Wrote: Israeli forces dressed as civilian women and medics kill 3 militants in a West Bank hospital
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92
The notion Hamas is somehow alone in violating international laws against the use of civilians as shields or "hiding among civilians" is probably the biggest coup of IDF propaganda, at least in the US.

They killed terrorists?  Good. The IDF were not hiding among civilians, the Hamas dogs were. The IDF infiltrated dressed as civilians. A rather key distinction.

Quote:What makes Israel the aggressor nation in this case is that it was founded by hundreds of thousands of Jews who came from Europe and then took Palestinian land by violence. It's not like the Jews were there and it's the Palestinians who came from Europe, right?  Gaza refugees are a reminder and a reminder of that dispossession. Since 1967 it has been controlled by Israel, like an open air prison--and ILLEGALLY according to international law. 

Israel was attacked.  They kicked the shit out of their attackers and took some of their land.  Rinse, repeat.  Too bad.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-27-2024, 08:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They killed terrorists?  Good.  The IDF were not hiding among civilians, the Hamas dogs were.  The IDF infiltrated dressed as civilians.  A rather key distinction.


Israel was attacked.  They kicked the shit out of their attackers and took some of their land.  Rinse, repeat.  Too bad.

It is odd the chanting is "Free Palestine" not " Free Palestine from Hamas"...

[Dill]

(06-27-2024, 08:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They killed terrorists?  Good.  The IDF were not hiding among civilians, the Hamas dogs were.  The IDF infiltrated dressed as civilians.  A rather key distinction.
Israel was attacked.  They kicked the shit out of their attackers and took some of their land.  Rinse, repeat.  Too bad.

A "key distinction" without a difference.  An assassination team dresses as civilians so that it can hide among civilians. 

Sure. People defending their land are the "attackers," not those taking it.  And you never say "too bad" when those whose land was taken fight back.

Your response to this assassination of wounded, out of combat, through an act of perfidy, just illustrates how far apart you an I are
on International Humanitarian Law, as well as the concept of basic and universal human rights.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2024, 01:46 AM)Dill Wrote: A "key distinction" without a difference.  An assassination team dresses as civilians so that it can hide among civilians.

Yes, these are called commando raids.  The Allies engaged in them repeatedly during WW2.  It's not strictly illegal for combatants to be out of uniform, they just lose all Geneva protections if they are caught in such a state.
 

Quote:Sure. People defending their land are the "attackers," not those taking it.  And you never say "too bad" when those whose land was taken fight back.

Pretty sure the Jews bought those lands their Arab Muslim neighbors then attacked them over.  Of course, one could historically argue that the Jews were there first and the Arab Muslims were colonizers, to frame things in a way more familiar to you.

Quote:Your response to this assassination of wounded, out of combat, through an act of perfidy, just illustrates how far apart you an I are
on International Humanitarian Law, as well as the concept of basic and universal human rights.  

Terrorists hiding in a hospital, or anywhere else, deserve anything they get.  You sympathize with terrorists, to the point you can't even label them as such.  I don't.  

[Dill]

(06-28-2024, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, these are called commando raids.  The Allies engaged in them repeatedly during WW2.  It's not strictly illegal for combatants to be out of uniform, they just lose all Geneva protections if they are caught in such a state.
Terrorists hiding in a hospital, or anywhere else, deserve anything they get.  You sympathize with terrorists, to the point you can't even label them as such.  I don't.  

Cheezus. Always guessing.

It IS STRICTLY ILLEGAL to execute helpless wounded, and to gain access to them by mimicking specially protected personnel like doctors and nurses, which places legitimate medical personnel in danger. That is perfidy.  

The bolded in your post just reaffirms what I said above. You side with partisan force, with no interest in law. Whoever controls the labels, controls you. 

(06-28-2024, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Pretty sure the Jews bought those lands their Arab Muslim neighbors then attacked them over.  Of course, one could historically argue that the Jews were there first and the Arab Muslims were colonizers, to frame things in a way more familiar to you.

Pretty sure the Jews couldn't buy even 10 percent of the land they wanted, and so took the rest by violence and terror. "Too bad" about their victims. 
I've corrected these errors before. But you keep repeating them. 

Of course, one could historically argue that the Jews were not "there first" as their own religious history explains they had to conquer Palestine and then amidst the former inhabitants. And the current Palestinian population are also descendants of the population living there from David to Herod Agrippa II.   

Even if Palestinian Arabs were wholly different invaders, under international law they still had current title to the land taken from them by force.  Again, you just toss aside law based on universal human rights in favor of ethnic law for an ethnic state.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2024, 03:08 AM)Dill Wrote: Cheezus. Always guessing.

It IS STRICTLY ILLEGAL to execute helpless wounded, and to gain access to them by mimicking specially protected personnel like doctors and nurses, which places legitimate medical personnel in danger. That is perfidy.  

The bolded in your post just reaffirms what I said above. You side with partisan force, with no interest in law. Whoever controls the labels, controls you.

You accuse me of guessing and then assume the Hamas terrorists were there because they were wounded and not hiding out in a hospital per Hamas SOP.  As for who I side with, when one choice is a democratic country and the other is genocidal, Islamic extremist, rapists and murderers the choice is pretty much made for me.

Quote:Pretty sure the Jews couldn't buy even 10 percent of the land they wanted, and so took the rest by violence and terror. "Too bad" about their victims. 
I've corrected these errors before. But you keep repeating them. 

Pretty sure they bought the land, then got attacked by genocidal neighbors.  Then kicked said neighbors ass, every time, taking territory after each victory.  You think their neighbors would learn at some point.

Quote:Of course, one could historically argue that the Jews were not "there first" as their own religious history explains they had to conquer Palestine and then amidst the former inhabitants. And the current Palestinian population are also descendants of the population living there from David to Herod Agrippa II.   

Even if Palestinian Arabs were wholly different invaders, under international law they still had current title to the land taken from them by force.  Again, you just toss aside law based on universal human rights in favor of ethnic law for an ethnic state.

Indeed, a game we could pay all day.  You could do the same in pretty much every part of the globe in which humans reside.  But at the end of the day Israel exists, it isn't going anywhere and people like you need to learn to deal with that.

[Dill]

(06-28-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It IS STRICTLY ILLEGAL to execute helpless wounded, and to gain access to them by mimicking specially protected personnel like doctors and nurses, which places legitimate medical personnel in danger. That is perfidy.  
The bolded in your post just reaffirms what I said above. You side with partisan force, with no interest in law. Whoever controls the labels, controls you.

You accuse me of guessing and then assume the Hamas terrorists were there because they were wounded and not hiding out in a hospital per Hamas SOP.  As for who I side with, when one choice is a democratic country and the other is genocidal, Islamic extremist, rapists and murderers the choice is pretty much made for me.

Yes guessing. And I also accuse you of assuming they were Hamas.  And it's as I said--perfidy, a war crime, plus execution of people hors de combat.  

And listen to yourself-- endorsing the principle of force over right, which legitimizes no democracy in the world, while purporting to "side with a democratic country," against the millions it has held under illegal occupation for generations. 

(06-28-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: .Pretty sure the Jews couldn't buy even 10 percent of the land they wanted, and so took the rest by violence and terror. "Too bad" about their victims. 
I've corrected these errors before. But you keep repeating them. 

Pretty sure they bought the land, then got attacked by genocidal neighbors.  Then kicked said neighbors ass, every time, taking territory after each victory.  You think their neighbors would learn at some point.

Still guessing.  Jewish ownership in the Mandate as a whole had reached %5.67, %24.27 in the UN proposed Jewish state.
https://archive.org/details/lop_20200731/page/n9/mode/1up   https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-196499/

And again, your words show your elevation of violence over law. 

(06-28-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Even if Palestinian Arabs were wholly different invaders, under international law they still had current title to the land taken from them by force.  Again, you just toss aside law based on universal human rights in favor of ethnic law for an ethnic state.

Indeed, a game we could pay all day.  You could do the same in pretty much every part of the globe in which humans reside.  But at the end of the day Israel exists, it isn't going anywhere and people like you need to learn to deal with that.

I see people working to establish International Humanitarian Law "in every part of the globe in which humans reside."  

Apparently without your approval. Expecting people to "deal with" generations of military rule is just a formula for generations of Hamas,
as the Netanyahu's war cabinet has begun to realize. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2024, 06:23 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes guessing. And I also accuse you of assuming they were Hamas.  And it's as I said--perfidy, a war crime, plus execution of people hors de combat.  

And listen to yourself-- endorsing the principle of force over right, which legitimizes no democracy in the world, while purporting to "side with a democratic country," against the millions it has held under illegal occupation for generations.

 
I'm not assuming anything in that regard.  Hamas literally claimed the guy.  From your own article.

Hamas condemned the killings and identified Jalamneh as one of its fighters. The smaller Islamic Jihad militant group said the Ghazawi brothers were members of its armed wing.


Do you even read the sources you post?  Accuse away, my good man. 

Quote:Still guessing.  Jewish ownership in the Mandate as a whole had reached %5.67, %24.27 in the UN proposed Jewish state.
https://archive.org/details/lop_20200731/page/n9/mode/1up   https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-196499/

And again, your words show your elevation of violence over law. 

I've said before I'd have preferred Israel not kept territory they occupied while defending themselves.  That said, I have zero sympathy with the aggressor who gets their ass kicked and loses some territory because of it.

Quote:I see people working to establish International Humanitarian Law "in every part of the globe in which humans reside."  

Apparently without your approval. Expecting people to "deal with" generations of military rule is just a formula for generations of Hamas,
as the Netanyahu's war cabinet has begun to realize. 

Maybe your appreciation for International Law will extend to Qatar turning over the heads of Hamas and their stolen billions.  Or the arrest of the number one state sponsor of terrorism the government of Iran.  Probably not though.