7 Winners & 3 Losers From Week 2 Against The Giants

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-22-2022, 10:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think he’s already better than Carman.

I meant with pass pro and run blocking stats and PFF grade and such (I don't have them available to me, otherwise I would've done the comparison).

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2022, 10:21 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm probably being paranoid, but I get nightmares about the team just rolling with Michael Jordan at LG because he was cheap and young. "Oh, he'll come around," they said. We all know how that ended.

I will admit that I liked Jordan as a prospect.  I understood why they gave him a second season to develop.

But we were in "re-build" mode then.  Right now we are in a very small window where we are set up to make a legit run at a championship.  Hopefully Carman, Volson, Smith, or Hill develops into a solid starter.  But even if none of those guys are better than Jordan they will look better just because of the better talent around them.  

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2022, 11:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Good post.  "Average air yards" is a more accurate metric, but I could not find anything other than single season stats.

I do question how much is required for a QB to qualify if there are 72 since 2019.  But that is okay in this instance because we are talking about a back up.  He is not going to have a lot of attempts.

Pro-Football-Reference has Air Yards in their Advanced Passing section on QB pages.
It includes every season since 2018.

Here's Brandon Allen's page - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleBr00.htm

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2022, 11:54 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Pro-Football-Reference has Air Yards in their Advanced Passing section on QB pages.
It includes every season since 2018.

Here's Brandon Allen's page - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleBr00.htm

Yes.  That is the source I use.  But for "air yards" they don't have "career" numbers.  Just individual seasons.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2022, 11:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  That is the source I use.  But for "air yards" they don't have "career" numbers.  Just individual seasons.

True but it can be calculated by using the individual season metrics.

[Whatever]

(08-23-2022, 11:01 AM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the thing, you can have one weak spot you can't have multiples. Ted being a vet will be very beneficial to whomever lines up at LG. In the majority of cases you have four man rushes which means there is always an extra blocker. Add into that many passing plays have the HB in a check and release call so you have a 6th if needed. There is plenty of ways to get the LG help if we need it. We are way overblowing the idea that LG (which by the way is the least important position on the line) means certain doom if not changed out.

Now if Jonah or Ted go down and we have to plug an inexperienced guy on either side of the LG that could be an issue.

You're correct on that even good NFL OL's have at least one weak link anymore.  There are only a couple of teams that have a good or better starter at every OL spot.  My big concern is injuries.

Carman or Volson will get the job because Pollack would lose all credibility if they don't.  They've signed three quality veteran starters to join the one we already had.  If he can't develop one even mediocre starter out of 4 draft picks the last two drafts, then he's sunk, especially when you consider his previous failure with Billy Price.

[Joelist]

The line looked much better in a lot of ways the last game - and remember that this is still the second string line and playing against the Giants first string defense. The QB consistently had a pocket and time to throw and there was some push up front. What made it look so weird was Allen was just WAY off - not just in accuracy but his decision making was terrible. Why is anyone's guess.

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2022, 12:53 PM)Whatever Wrote: Carman or Volson will get the job because Pollack would lose all credibility if they don't.  

I don't understand what you are tryng to say.  If he plays Carman or Volson and they stink he will also lose credibility.

Over the years I have heard this comment many times about how a coach has to play a play a high draft pick to protect his credibility.  But coaches lose even MORE credibility when they play a guy who stinks with better options on the bench.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-23-2022, 09:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This is what I expected with Volson.
He'd do some things well, but he'd definitely have some struggles at times.

The problem I have is this is not the level I want for a starter for a Super Bowl team.

I'm happy for Volson and also even Carman to be the backup OGs this season while they continue development and even get some spot reps.
I'd like for someone else to be added that can give the fans more confidence the spot is solidified for this season.

I am not against us bringing in a guy like Ereck Flowers but I think it is a little late. I understand your concerns, especially 
when you look at our past and not being able to develop the young guys on rookie contracts. Spain if healthy and in shape
still makes a lot of sense but he WILL cost more than a Carman or Volson. I think what Au165 said pretty much summed it
up with all teams wanting to have a young player on their rookie contract starting for the future and for cap reasons.

I still think between the two of Volson and Carman one of them at least will grow into an adequate starter. Especially being
in between 2 players of Jonah and Ted's quality.

It isn't like either of these guys are that OSU guy Jordan we had years ago that was never going to be good.

(08-23-2022, 09:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly.

And that's why I'd be ok with Spain back.
He was the team's 2nd best OL through the regular season, the 3rd best in the postseason.
He was rather consistent.
As the team's 4th or 5th best OL starter, that's good.
Getting Spain back would mean that spot is now downgraded at all, and the right side of the OL is a clear upgrade from last year.

It makes sense, I don't know why we haven't brought Spain back. Was calling for this all offseason as insurance and let
the best man win at LG. There must be a reason we have waited this long and still haven't brought him in. He knows the
system so he wouldn't have to gel as much as say Ereck Flowers would.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2022, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand what you are tryng to say.  If he plays Carman or Volson and they stink he will also lose credibility.

Over the years I have heard this comment many times about how a coach has to play a play a high draft pick to protect his credibility.  But coaches lose even MORE credibility when they play a guy who stinks with better options on the bench.

An interesting question to pose...
How long do we wait for Bengals OL drafted under Pollack to pan out before we call him a success or failure at developing talent?
Do Volson's and/or Carman's performance this year make people want to decide to keep him or not?

[AlphaBengal]

(08-23-2022, 01:51 PM)Joelist Wrote: The line looked much better in a lot of ways the last game - and remember that this is still the second string line and playing against the Giants first string defense. The QB consistently had a pocket and time to throw and there was some push up front. What made it look so weird was Allen was just WAY off - not just in accuracy but his decision making was terrible. Why is anyone's guess.

Because he's not a good quarterback.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(08-22-2022, 12:59 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Pause


17 Davis Cheek
Hello Bengals fans!  I understand that none of you have heard of me.  I'm Davis Cheek, and I'm your new backup QB!

Here are some fun facts about me!  I was a UDFA out of Elon College -- go Phoenix! -- signed by the quarterback-rich Carolina Panthers.  Despite my impressive stats at Elon -- 8548 yards passing, 51 TD's to 21 INT, 135.9 QBR, 224 yards rushing and 6 TD's-- I was released in May.

Want to know more?  I'm 6-3, 217, from Mathews NC (Butler HS).  I majored in business administration.

I can't wait to throw dimes to Chase, Higgins & Boyd!  Here I come!

I live about 20 minutes away from this dude.

[007BengalsFan]

(08-23-2022, 04:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am not against us bringing in a guy like Ereck Flowers but I think it is a little late. I understand your concerns, especially 
when you look at our past and not being able to develop the young guys on rookie contracts. Spain if healthy and in shape
still makes a lot of sense but he WILL cost more than a Carman or Volson...

Flowers PFF in pass protection is almost 20 points higher than Spain's.  I would much rather have Flowers at LG than Spain or Volson for that matter.

[Frank Booth]

(08-23-2022, 06:25 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Flowers PFF in pass protection is almost 20 points higher than Spain's.  I would much rather have Flowers at LG than Spain or Volson for that matter.

you're not thinking of the built in chemistry Spain and Jonah have

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2022, 01:51 PM)Joelist Wrote: The line looked much better in a lot of ways the last game - and remember that this is still the second string line and playing against the Giants first string defense. The QB consistently had a pocket and time to throw and there was some push up front. What made it look so weird was Allen was just WAY off - not just in accuracy but his decision making was terrible. Why is anyone's guess.

I didn't get a chance to watch the first game, but I was heavily disappointed with the OL in Preseason Game 2.

Here are some interesting tidbits from PFF's analysis of the OL in the preseason game 2:

Quote:

• The Bengals’ line ceded 16 pressures on 39 team pass-blocking snaps after giving up 13 on 40 snaps in preseason Week 1.
• Fourth-round rookie Cordell Volson handled significant snaps (40 pass blocking, 21 run blocking). He gave up a sack and two hurries in pass protection. 

[007BengalsFan]

(08-23-2022, 06:36 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you're not thinking of the built in chemistry Spain and Jonah have

Spain only had a 58.9 pass protection  PFF even with this "chemistry" and it certainly didn't help Spain in the Super Bowl.  I would rather have Flowers and his 78.1 PFF.

[Frank Booth]

(08-23-2022, 07:01 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain only had a 58.9 pass protection  PFF even with this "chemistry" and it certainly didn't help Spain in the Super Bowl.  I would rather have Flowers and his 78.1 PFF.

this argument again? Yes, he was playing hurt. Yes, he was going against the most dominant d-lineman in the league.

Shame on Spain for not being Zack Martin. Every decent guard gets destroyed by Aaron Donald. No shame in that

[007BengalsFan]

(08-23-2022, 07:05 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: this argument again? Yes, he was playing hurt. Yes, he was going against the most dominant d-lineman in the league.

Shame on Spain for not being Zack Martin. Every decent guard gets destroyed by Aaron Donald. No shame in that

The being hurt excuse is complete nonsense.   Spain was never good in pass protection even before the playoffs.  That 58 PFF grade is Spain's grade from regular season.  He was never that good in pass protection. 

[Frank Booth]

(08-23-2022, 07:25 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The being hurt excuse is complete nonsense.   Spain was never good in pass protection even before the playoffs.  That 58 PFF grade is Spain's grade from regular season.  He was never that good in pass protection. 

58, while not good, is also not bad. 58 is absolutely fine.

damn good run blocker though

[Joelist]

(08-23-2022, 06:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't get a chance to watch the first game, but I was heavily disappointed with the OL in Preseason Game 2.

Here are some interesting tidbits from PFF's analysis of the OL in the preseason game 2:

I trust my eyes over PFF. And a LOT of analysts that follow the Bengals (Rapein, Goodberry, Liscow and others) are saying the same thing and calling PFF into question because the scores make no sense.