(12-14-2016, 03:06 AM)Benton Wrote: Oh man, it will take a while to explain it. A year or so ago I spent a few days with an old friend who works for Centcom and I still felt like I needed a flow chart to understand where all the pieces fit together.
The most concise I can probably make it is:
We went into Iraq looking for terrorists more than a decade ago. We were in the wrong place attacking the wrong people. We kicked out the ruling party, which spread into a number of terrorist organizations. In the following years, some of them made their way into Syria where they allied with rebels who were speaking out (mostly peacefully) against Assad's government. It wasn't just Syria, they made their way into other countries, too, but this is the one that we're talking about now. So, anyway, the Syrian rebels (who were rebelling against Assad, who elevated to gassing civilians) started to realize the new sympathizers (ISIS) weren't any better than the regime they were fighting against. So, they started fighting against ISIS. And the government.
And then things went to **** for Syrian rebels.
Assad got help from ISIS in killing off civilians (unarmed "rebels" wanting representation in government). And he got help from Russia in fighting off the rebels (armed civilians wanting representation in government). The only one he didn't get help from? The US. We didn't help him, but... unlike Russia... we were fighting ISIS, his indirect allies who he's let have parts of the country, which hurt Assad's effort.
Assad isn't directly allied with ISIS, but it didn't matter. He was murdering civilians the same as them. The refugees are the people who got tired of trying to fight both their own government and the terrorist factions it used against them.
Think about it this way: If the state of Ohio tomorrow started mass murdering anyone who wasn't registered with a particular political party, would you fight it? If the answer is yes, would you keep fighting after having to combat those using ISIS's tactics (burning family members alive, beheading captured soldiers, etc)? Or would you do like the refugees are trying to do and start over with your family somewhere where the government in control isn't trying to kill you?
Unfortunately, misinformation was an incredible tool as painting Syrian rebels as ISIS terrorists. Or as some angry militant mob of Muslims moving through Europe. Some are, but, mostly, Syrian refugees got tired of fighting a well funded terrorist organization and a Russian-backed government intent on killing off political opponents.
Just bumping this in hopes everyone has seen it. A tremendous amount to be considered here, in such a few short paragraphs. Well done, Benton.
Some say you can place your ear next to his, and hear the ocean ....
(12-13-2016, 10:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, then why were the Americans, under the Obama administration supplying weaponry to the rebel factions? Seems to me that this is another example of a Nation that was undergoing turmoil, that did not need Western interference. We all saw how things came unglued when we got into the whole Iraq deal...
Supposedly the idea was to overthrow Assad, install a new government, and then have that government turn and fight ISIS. Geographically the rebels are caught between Assad and ISIS, so funding them in a failed attempt to overthrow Assad effectively stopped both groups from going after ISIS. There are even more strange happenings going on with Turkey fighting with the YPG and other Kurdish forces that are anti-ISIS but also have a rocky relationship with Turkey. Had all of the anti-ISIS parties actually fought against their common enemy rather than fighting against each other, the conflict may have looked drastically different.
(12-14-2016, 12:20 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Supposedly the idea was to overthrow Assad, install a new government, and then have that government turn and fight ISIS. Geographically the rebels are caught between Assad and ISIS, so funding them in a failed attempt to overthrow Assad effectively stopped both groups from going after ISIS. There are even more strange happenings going on with Turkey fighting with the YPG and other Kurdish forces that are anti-ISIS but also have a rocky relationship with Turkey. Had all of the anti-ISIS parties actually fought against their common enemy rather than fighting against each other, the conflict may have looked drastically different.
And, of course, the rebels themselves are a mixture of groups, some allied and some opposing each other. Some are al-Qaeda linked jihadists. Others seek democratic reforms. Some are just Kurds hoping for a Kurdish state.
(12-14-2016, 01:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: And, of course, the rebels themselves are a mixture of groups, some allied and some opposing each other. Some are al-Qaeda linked jihadists. Others seek democratic reforms. Some are just Kurds hoping for a Kurdish state.
It's no wonder why there's so many refugee's. I'd be looking to get out of dodge too, and let the idiots fight it out.
(12-14-2016, 02:14 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: It's no wonder why there's so many refugee's. I'd be looking to get out of dodge too, and let the idiots fight it out.
Living in that horror is almost unimaginable, and to think there are those who refuse to empathize ..... another horror in itself.
Some say you can place your ear next to his, and hear the ocean ....
(12-14-2016, 02:14 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: It's no wonder why there's so many refugee's. I'd be looking to get out of dodge too, and let the idiots fight it out.
No. Don't you know all abled bodies males should stay and fight?!?!
At least that's what I have been told...
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(12-14-2016, 02:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: or those that do not want to fight should stay and provide aid to those who cannot.
Of course there is a mentality that says " Screw 'em, every man for himself".
And there's the mentality that says live to fight another day, in another way...not commit suicide by fighting a losing battle because other people will think you are less of a man for being smart enough to know you cannot win.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(12-14-2016, 02:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: or those that do not want to fight should stay and provide aid to those who cannot.
Of course there is a mentality that says " Screw 'em, every man for himself".
Which would be ok... if Assad and ISIS weren't both killing those who don't want to fight.
Their choice is to support radical Islam, support a government indirectly supporting radical Islam, death or leaving.
There's been a call for non-extremist Muslims in the Middle East to stand up against extremists. Many of the Syrian rebels were doing that... and they weren't getting much support for it.
(12-14-2016, 02:14 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: It's no wonder why there's so many refugee's. I'd be looking to get out of dodge too, and let the idiots fight it out.
I showed this BBC documentary 3 years ago to my government class.
It was great at the start of the Civil War but is completely outdated now that Obama and Hillary created ISIS. Syria is just one of those post WWI states created by Europe that lumped so many different groups together, so it's no wonder that there are so many sides and so many who are willing to give up trying to fix Syria and just want to live elsewhere. The French did a decent job running it as a mandate, allowing groups to exist in their own region, but after WWII, it was just one big state.
Then one of the smallest and more persecuted groups, the Alawites, rose to power after being influential in the French army and the Alawite Assad family took over. You have a minority once considered to be simple mountain people controlling this whole region.
(12-14-2016, 02:56 PM)Benton Wrote: There's been a call for non-extremist Muslims in the Middle East to stand up against extremists. Many of the Syrian rebels were doing that... and they weren't getting much support for it.
Yea, those supporting a secular government that promoted women's rights and democracy either were beheaded by ISIS or bombed by Putin.
One of my best friend's parents are from Syria. It sucks because any of his cousins who didn't leave are stuck there dealing with this shit.
(12-14-2016, 12:20 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Supposedly the idea was to overthrow Assad, install a new government, and then have that government turn and fight ISIS. Geographically the rebels are caught between Assad and ISIS, so funding them in a failed attempt to overthrow Assad effectively stopped both groups from going after ISIS. There are even more strange happenings going on with Turkey fighting with the YPG and other Kurdish forces that are anti-ISIS but also have a rocky relationship with Turkey. Had all of the anti-ISIS parties actually fought against their common enemy rather than fighting against each other, the conflict may have looked drastically different.
It's a civil war. The rebels are trying to overthrow Assad. At least some of the Syrian rebels are fighting ISIS. ISIS is fighting Iraq, the Kurds, the Syrian Rebels, and anyone else who would interfere with their Sunni caliphate. Combating Assad and ISIS is why the US is supporting some of the Syrian rebel groups. We also support the Kurds to fight ISIS. The Kurds are fighting the Turks who are our NATO allies. Assad tolerates ISIS to a degree because they are combating the rebels which hope to over throw him. Iran is supporting ISIS, Assad, and the anti-Sunni Iraqi government to increase their influence in the region. Russia is supporting Assad so it doesn't create a post -Assad power vacuum ala post-Saddam Iraq for their interest in the region. Saudi Arabia has supported the rebels and ISIS to overthrow Assad and decrease Iran's influence. We support Saudi Arabia which means we are indirectly supporting ISIS which we are simultaneously trying to destroy in a Sunni-Shia proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
It sounds confusing, but it isn't even that simple. It's one of the great blunders.
Sunset, think of the Syrian Civil War as similar to our own. Assad is the Union. The Syrian rebels are the Rebel South. ISIS is the militant Jayhawkers operating outside of the Law, but with the Law's tacit approval, who killed Josey Wales' family which just started another cycle of bloodshed.
Any Aleppo refugees would just be a drop in the bucket.
(12-14-2016, 02:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: And there's the mentality that says live to fight another day, in another way...not commit suicide by fighting a losing battle because other people will think you are less of a man for being smart enough to know you cannot win.
And leave your wife and children behind, that's showing them!
(12-14-2016, 02:21 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Living in that horror is almost unimaginable, and to think there are those who refuse to empathize ..... another horror in itself.
Yea it's hard for many to imagine having to live in that nightmare. And you're right the lack of empathy is a horror in itself. I feel the same way about illegal immigrants fleeing a crushing poverty that you or I couldn't possibly fathom. But each their own.
(12-14-2016, 02:22 PM)GMDino Wrote: No. Don't you know all abled bodies males should stay and fight?!?!
It was great at the start of the Civil War but is completely outdated now that Obama and Hillary created ISIS. Syria is just one of those post WWI states created by Europe that lumped so many different groups together, so it's no wonder that there are so many sides and so many who are willing to give up trying to fix Syria and just want to live elsewhere. The French did a decent job running it as a mandate, allowing groups to exist in their own region, but after WWII, it was just one big state.
Then one of the smallest and more persecuted groups, the Alawites, rose to power after being influential in the French army and the Alawite Assad family took over. You have a minority once considered to be simple mountain people controlling this whole region.
I'm aware of the history of the region, but yea I wish a lot of people understood the information you've posted.
(12-14-2016, 02:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: And there's the mentality that says live to fight another day, in another way...not commit suicide by fighting a losing battle because other people will think you are less of a man for being smart enough to know you cannot win.
I guess "smart" is one word that could describe someone who would abandon their country and those too sick and/or old to seek refuge. Lots of smart guys jumped in front of women, elderly, and children on the Titanic; but they lived to "fight" another day.
(12-14-2016, 02:56 PM)Benton Wrote: Which would be ok... if Assad and ISIS weren't both killing those who don't want to fight.
Their choice is to support radical Islam, support a government indirectly supporting radical Islam, death or leaving.
There's been a call for non-extremist Muslims in the Middle East to stand up against extremists. Many of the Syrian rebels were doing that... and they weren't getting much support for it.
Well I suppose if it were easy everyone would do it.
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