Alibaba's Jack Ma backs down from promise to Trump to bring 1 million jobs to the US

[GMDino]

Well, this is disheartening, if not unsurprising...


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/19/jack-ma-alibaba-is-no-longer-planning-to-create-1-million-us-jobs.html

Quote:Jack Ma, founder and chairman of Chinese retail giant Alibaba, says the company no longer plans to create 1 million jobs in the United States in the wake of the ongoing trade conflict between the U.S. and China.



Ma made his original job creation pronouncement during a high-profile meeting with Donald Trump in January 2017 before Trump's inauguration as president.


"The promise was made on the premise of friendly US-China partnership and rational trade relations," Ma told Chinese news site Xinhua on Wednesday. "That premise no longer exists today, so our promise cannot be fulfilled."

Ma, who recently announced that he will step down as Alibaba chairman within a year, added that the company would "not stop working hard to contribute to the healthy development of China-US trade.".


Ma's comments come on the heels of a new round of tariffs this weekfrom both China and the U.S. that will affect billions of dollars worth of goods as the two countries have failed to reach a deal to resolve the Trump administration's concerns about China's trade practices.


At an Alibaba investor conference on Tuesday, Ma also called the trade frictions a "mess" that could have decadeslong ramifications.



Experts have said that Ma's promise to enable 1 million American small businesses and farmers to sell their goods on the Alibaba platform over the next five years was lofty to begin with.

[Yojimbo]

Trade wars are easy to win.

[NATI BENGALS]

Pretty hard to compete against China's bullshit. I appreciate trumps attempt to do something about it.

Then i get to the fact he has profitted from it. And now isnt affraid to make other American people suffer as his shitty conman bankruptcy based business model tries to fix the problem...

[Vas Deferens]

It’s the wettest we’ve seen in a while, in terms of water.

[NATI BENGALS]

(09-19-2018, 10:35 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: It’s the wettest we’ve seen in a while, in terms of water.

Wow..

Well shit..

When you put it that way...

 Man...

Glad my scumbag buddy who knows all about scamming the government out if disaster relief money and covering up the tracks of a wetting all over your face type disaster is handling the response

[Benton]

Good. Tariffs are good for American workers but bad for American companies (who are on the receiving end of benefits these days anyway).

[Au165]

(09-20-2018, 12:05 AM)Benton Wrote: Good. Tariffs are good for American workers but bad for American companies (who are on the receiving end of benefits these days anyway).

Bad for American consumers too in that all the people are going to be paying more.

[GMDino]

(09-20-2018, 12:05 AM)Benton Wrote: Good. Tariffs are good for American workers but bad for American companies (who are on the receiving end of benefits these days anyway).

And you don't think that American companies, after decades now of all benefits, aren't going to punish the American Workers before they take a hit themselves?

[Benton]

(09-20-2018, 08:35 AM)Au165 Wrote: Bad for American consumers too in that all the people are going to be paying more.

(09-20-2018, 08:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: And you don't think that American companies, after decades now of all benefits, aren't going to punish the American Workers before they take a hit themselves?

Unfortunately, we've gone too far to the capitalist side of economics. Part of the reason our economy was as strong as it was had to do with a balance between socialist policies offset by capitalistic investment. But we let the capitalist side of things run wild, which is part of the cause for the Great Recession and why our current economy won't budge too much.

End of the day, if it costs too much to buy a tv, people won't buy a tv. You can either lower the cost (which is what we've been doing by moving jobs out of the country) or increase consumer buying power (which is what we haven't done by going forward with lopsided trade agreements, declining to look at a realistic wage scale, having real tax reform, etc.). It's going to get worse before it gets better, but we're getting to the point where there aren't enough jobs to support the economy. We can either use tariffs to encourage businesses to return home, or we can continue to ship jobs out of the country until we get to where nobody can afford much of anything.

Tariffs are good, we just have to ride out the short-term.

[*Nately120*]

Being a neo-con must be rather conflicting. On the one hand, only people who are lazy freeloaders don't have jobs...but on the other hand, we want a president who is going to create jobs, and bring back defunct industries/jobs, and "win" jobs from China and so on.

[Au165]

(09-20-2018, 10:40 AM)Benton Wrote: Unfortunately, we've gone too far to the capitalist side of economics. Part of the reason our economy was as strong as it was had to do with a balance between socialist policies offset by capitalistic investment. But we let the capitalist side of things run wild, which is part of the cause for the Great Recession and why our current economy won't budge too much.

End of the day, if it costs too much to buy a tv, people won't buy a tv. You can either lower the cost (which is what we've been doing by moving jobs out of the country) or increase consumer buying power (which is what we haven't done by going forward with lopsided trade agreements, declining to look at a realistic wage scale, having real tax reform, etc.). It's going to get worse before it gets better, but we're getting to the point where there aren't enough jobs to support the economy. We can either use tariffs to encourage businesses to return home, or we can continue to ship jobs out of the country until we get to where nobody can afford much of anything.

Tariffs are good, we just have to ride out the short-term.

Tariffs don't take into account the technological factors at play today. They are an archaic tool that doesn't work in today's world because the options aren't pay people here to make it or pay them there, now there is a third option of let a robot make it. If things cost to much to make here or abroad robots will be made to eliminate the human cost. It is not science fiction it is happening. Heck McDonalds and other fast food joints are adding kiosks to prepare for the point when worker wages exceed the cost of automation. There will come a time eventually where you order on a kiosk and a machine builds your big mac. It'll create mid level programming and technical servicing jobs but not the production and unskilled labor jobs people think these Tariffs will bring back.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-20-2018, 10:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: Tariffs don't take into account the technological factors at play today. They are an archaic tool that doesn't work in today's world because the options aren't pay people here to make it or pay them there, now there is a third option of let a robot make it. If things cost to much to make here or abroad robots will be made to eliminate the human cost. It is not science fiction it is happening. Heck McDonalds and other fast food joints are adding kiosks to prepare for the point when worker wages exceed the cost of automation. There will come a time eventually where you order on a kiosk and a machine builds your big mac. It'll create mid level programming and technical servicing jobs but not the production and unskilled labor jobs people think these Tariffs will bring back.

Will the robots build it like the commercials?  If so I'm all in.  

[Au165]

(09-20-2018, 11:05 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Will the robots build it like the commercials?  If so I'm all in.  

I know this is a joke, but it's actually why robots make so much more sense than humans. There is no learning curve or inferior workers, they will do a repeated action with an expected result at a much higher rate. I think you will see a lot more 24 hr a day fast food places as well as they will be able to keep it open with little to no supervision.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 10:35 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: It’s the wettest we’ve seen in a while, in terms of water.

If only he had said felt instead of seen, folks could have had a field day IRT his crouch grabbing.

[Benton]

(09-20-2018, 10:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: Tariffs don't take into account the technological factors at play today. They are an archaic tool that doesn't work in today's world because the options aren't pay people here to make it or pay them there, now there is a third option of let a robot make it. If things cost to much to make here or abroad robots will be made to eliminate the human cost. It is not science fiction it is happening. Heck McDonalds and other fast food joints are adding kiosks to prepare for the point when worker wages exceed the cost of automation. There will come a time eventually where you order on a kiosk and a machine builds your big mac. It'll create mid level programming and technical servicing jobs but not the production and unskilled labor jobs people think these Tariffs will bring back.

To the bold, we aren't there yet. And if we get there, that's where the balance comes in. Consumers and workers have choices. Government can legislate to encourage consumer decisions that promote American jobs, or they can legislate to encourage consumer decisions that promote jobs in other countries.

Personally, I don't use kiosks. It put someone out of a job in the name of increased profit. If no one used them, companies would be forced to stop doing it or see customers go to another competitor.

Tariffs help. We need more of them. And we need a realistic look at tying wages to the economy, tax reform and other economic foibles otherwise we're going to be stuck in deficit spending forever.

[Au165]

(09-20-2018, 12:40 PM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, we aren't there yet. And if we get there, that's where the balance comes in. Consumers and workers have choices. Government can legislate to encourage consumer decisions that promote American jobs, or they can legislate to encourage consumer decisions that promote jobs in other countries.

Personally, I don't use kiosks. It put someone out of a job in the name of increased profit. If no one used them, companies would be forced to stop doing it or see customers go to another competitor.

Tariffs help. We need more of them. And we need a realistic look at tying wages to the economy, tax reform and other economic foibles otherwise we're going to be stuck in deficit spending forever.

The balance has already tipped to some low margin industries. Robots are the real threat to low skill labor not other countries. The enemy has never been other countries it has always been technology. Technology has killed manufacturing here because we simply don't need as many people here to do labor intensive jobs. Very mundane repetitive tasks that take 4 humans overseas get done by one here using a machine. The funny thing is the Tariffs hurt most the people they look to help in that the increases that get passed on are, in relation to salary, the biggest to the low income. I'd argue we take all the money we are about to lose from the retaliatory tariffs and continue to use it for skilled based job training. 


It's a shell game, the retaliation from someone like China cancels out anything we are gaining it's just moving who is affected by it. Everyone still pays in the increased goods department though, some may just not have jobs now to pay the increases. Well unless we bail out every industry like we did the farmers. 

[Benton]

(09-20-2018, 02:05 PM)Au165 Wrote: The balance has already tipped to some low margin industries. Robots are the real threat to low skill labor not other countries. The enemy has never been other countries it has always been technology. Technology has killed manufacturing here because we simply don't need as many people here to do labor intensive jobs. Very mundane repetitive tasks that take 4 humans overseas get done by one here using a machine. The funny thing is the Tariffs hurt most the people they look to help in that the increases that get passed on are, in relation to salary, the biggest to the low income. I'd argue we take all the money we are about to lose from the retaliatory tariffs and continue to use it for skilled based job training. 


It's a shell game, the retaliation from someone like China cancels out anything we are gaining it's just moving who is affected by it. Everyone still pays in the increased goods department though, some may just not have jobs now to pay the increases. Well unless we bail out every industry like we did the farmers. 

With respect, I think you're hung up on technology killing all the jobs.

Does it? Sure. It always has. But it likewise creates jobs. 

And that's not what I'm talking about, and doesn't really have to do with moving jobs done by people overseas. How many jobs? It's hard to tell as there's direct employers and indirect providers with few rules governing reporting, but conservative estimates are a few million jobs held overseas.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-u-s-companies-reveal-how-much-they-rely-on-overseas-workers-1523448000

Quote:Now, thanks to a new regulatory mandate affecting publicly traded companies, big multinationals are revealing fresh details about how many people they employ in the U.S. and to what extent some of the most recognizable American brands rely on workers in lower-cost countries.


Kellogg Co., the maker of Frosted Flakes and Pop-Tarts, employs nearly 20,000 people, or 59% of its workforce, overseas. At fruit and vegetable producer Fresh Del Monte ProduceInc., FDP -0.06% 80% of workers live and work in Costa Rica, Guatemala, Kenya and the Philippines.

...

Apparel company Hanesbrands Inc., whose global workforce has increased by 21% since 2010, already discloses in its annual report how many of its workers are based in the U.S., where head count has shrunk. Its proportion of overseas workers rose last year to 88% of 67,200 employees overall, compared with 85% of 55,500 workers in 2010.
...

Between 2000 and 2015, the most recent year that Commerce Department data is available, American multinationals hired 4.3 million people in the U.S. but added even more jobs—6.2 million—overseas. In total, U.S. multinationals in 2015 employed 28.3 million people domestically and 14.1 million abroad.

Worth noting from the article, not all those jobs are leaving because of cheap labor, some are just open markets.

We'll get to the battles against Skynet. But that's not the problem right now. 

[Au165]

(09-20-2018, 03:03 PM)Benton Wrote: With respect, I think you're hung up on technology killing all the jobs.

Does it? Sure. It always has. But it likewise creates jobs. 

And that's not what I'm talking about, and doesn't really have to do with moving jobs done by people overseas. How many jobs? It's hard to tell as there's direct employers and indirect providers with few rules governing reporting, but conservative estimates are a few million jobs held overseas.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-u-s-companies-reveal-how-much-they-rely-on-overseas-workers-1523448000

Worth noting from the article, not all those jobs are leaving because of cheap labor, some are just open markets.

We'll get to the battles against Skynet. But that's not the problem right now. 

No not all jobs, but a lot of jobs that require little or no no specialized skill. Trucking is being attacked by the driver less car industry, Warehouse workers will be replaced by sorting robots soon as Amazon pushes hard, Food service is already testing the kiosks and automated cooking robots. I think you are under estimating how much can easily be replaced by robots. What it does is the same thing it has always done when tech comes in, even advancements in machinery, it shifts jobs from unskilled labor to semi skilled. What we continue to hunt for is a resurgence in unskilled labor and it simply will not come back. This however is probably it's own thread as it could go on and on. 

To the point of this thread though just not a fan of Tariffs, especially in a trade war with a country that can hit us back almost as hard. 

[Benton]

(09-20-2018, 03:26 PM)Au165 Wrote: No not all jobs, but a lot of jobs that require little or no no specialized skill. Trucking is being attacked by the driver less car industry, Warehouse workers will be replaced by sorting robots soon as Amazon pushes hard, Food service is already testing the kiosks and automated cooking robots. I think you are under estimating how much can easily be replaced by robots.  What it does is the same thing it has always done when tech comes in, even advancements in machinery, it shifts jobs from unskilled labor to semi skilled. What we continue to hunt for is a resurgence in unskilled labor and it simply will not come back. This however is probably it's own thread as it could go on and on. 

To the point of this thread though just not a fan of Tariffs, especially in a trade war with a country that can hit us back almost as hard. 

Sometimes easily, but ... again... that's not really the discussion. Some jobs can't. And some companies can't afford to automate. 

The trick is incentivizing companies not to automate or outsource. Right now, we've tipped well out of balance in favor of capitalism. Maximizing profits is the only incentive, and that's resulted in hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of jobs overseas and billions taken out of the economy. Businesses should get tax breaks for creating jobs and building a healthy economy, not just because they paid off lawmakers. Those unskilled jobs are out there, we just haven't given businesses a reason to keep them here; instead we gave them a reason to export them.

Fear of modernization has been around a long time. It changes industries and creates new ones, but there will likely always be a need for cheap unskilled labor.