Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director

[GMDino]

Slave labor.  That's what he's talking about.

Keeping prisons operating just to have salve labor.

What a country.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/07/14/arizona-cities-would-collapse-without-prison-labor/10062910002/

Quote:Arizona Department of Corrections Director David Shinn said Arizona communities would “collapse” without cheap prison labor, during testimony before the Joint Legislative Budget Committee Thursday.


Shinn made the statement while answering questions about a Request For Proposal for a contract to run the Florence West prison.


Sen. David Gowan asked Shinn about the nature of the work the prisoners do at the Florence West prison. In Arizona, all people in state prisons are forced to work 40 hours a week with exceptions for prisoners with health care conditions and other conflicting programming schedules. Some prisoners earn just 10 cents an hour for their work.


“These are low-level worker inmates that work in the communities around the county itself, I would imagine?" Gowan asked.


“Yes. The department does more than just incarcerate folks,” Shinn replied. “There are services that this department provides to city, county, local jurisdictions, that simply can't be quantified at a rate that most jurisdictions could ever afford. If you were to remove these folks from that equation, things would collapse in many of your counties, for your constituents.”

Defending the choice to keep state and private prisons open despite dwindling populations, Shinn told the legislators “while it doesn't necessarily serve the department in the best interest to have these places open, we have to do it to support Arizona.”


“Without the ability to have these folks at far flung places like Apache, like Globe, like Fort Grant, even like Florence West, communities wouldn't have access to these resources or services, and literally would have to spend more to be able to provide that to their constituents,” Shinn said. 

'Plainly grossly inadequate': Arizona prison health care system ruled unconstitutional


Current private prison contract pays  for beds, even if they are empty


The state currently contracts with The GEO Group, one of the largest private prison companies, to run Florence West, a minimum security prison that can hold up to 750 people. 


Budget committee staffer Geoff Paulsen said the state had purchased the facility through incremental payments over the life of the current contract, with the intention of the state taking ownership in October 2022. 


The facility was built in 1997.
After taking ownership, the state would either need to provide staffing for the prison, or contract staffing out to another private contractor.

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Shinn told the committee at this point, the state is in no position to run Florence West, citing 1,891 vacancies among corrections officers throughout the Department of Corrections.


“If the state were to take this over today, we would literally have to shut down functions and close programs,” Shinn said. “We cannot support that level of activity without our partners.”


As with most other private prison contracts in Arizona, the RFP to run Florence West guarantees the vendor a 90% occupancy rate, meaning the state pays a per diem rate for 675 prisoners, regardless of how many people are actually incarcerated there.


As of July 13, there were only 457 prisoners at Florence West.


Rep. Kelli Butler asked Shinn why the state would agree to such a contract condition, in which the state would likely be paying for more than 200 empty beds.


“I cannot speak firsthand on the logic of why previous contracts were written that way,” Shinn said. “However, I can assure you that we are looking at that very thing in this RFP process."


Rep. John Kavanagh said to get companies interested in bidding for the contract, it was necessary to provide a profit motive.


“You have to guarantee that they're going to have people there, and they're going to have a profit that they make, they're going to have income,” Kavanagh said. “No one's going to enter into a contract when you can't guarantee the income that they expect. That's kind of based on basic business.”

Behind the black curtain: [url=https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/06/08/republic-reporter-describes-witnessing-frank-atwood-arizona-execution/7561081001/]Republic reporter describes 'surreal' Frank Atwood execution


After more questioning from Butler, Shinn confirmed there were currently more than 5,000 empty beds in the Arizona prison system state-wide.


“So we do have the option of switching these inmates out of this facility and into other facilities and save a lot of money for the taxpayer,” Butler said. “So I'm less concerned about whether or not this private prison company makes the profits that they want to make and more concerned about the taxpayer of Arizona.”


When Butler asked “Why aren’t we closing more prisons?” her line of questioning was 
halted by committee leadership for being outside the scope of discussion.


Butler noted many of the people incarcerated at the Florence West prison are serving time for DUI’s, and asked about their access to substance abuse programming.


“During the interim, I did some study about what the private prisons were providing in terms of substance abuse treatment,” Butler said. She said she found that 13.9% of the people in private prisons received treatment. "That means the vast majority do not.”


Butler asked if there was any language in the RFP mandating substance abuse treatment, but Shinn said he could not comment on specifics during the bidding process.


The most recent private prison contract in Arizona was awarded to private prison operator CoreCivic, in a deal that is expected to generate millions in profits for the company. The five-year contract took effect on Dec. 29, 2021. The state will pay CoreCivic $85.12 per prisoner, per day for the contract, with the state guaranteeing a minimum 90% occupancy rate. The prisoners were relocated to CoreCivic’s La Palma Correctional Center in Eloy from the state prison in Florence, which the state is closing.

An Arizona Republic investigation found that Arizona lawmakers invested more in private prisons after record-high campaign contributions from the industry in recent years.


The Joint Legislative Budget Committee gave a favorable review to the Department of Corrections RFP process for the Florence West prison on Thursday.


Responses to the RFP are due by July 30. The contract to run Florence West is for five years. 

And the sates pay them with the HOPE they will fill the beds.

I wonder if that leads to dirty business from the judges through the cops?  

Nah....not here.  

[*pally*]

more interested in protecting profits for the management company than anything else

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2022, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Slave labor.  That's what he's talking about.

Keeping prisons operating just to have salve labor.

What a country.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/07/14/arizona-cities-would-collapse-without-prison-labor/10062910002/



And the sates pay them with the HOPE they will fill the beds.

I wonder if that leads to dirty business from the judges through the cops?  

Nah....not here.  

I've been against private, for profit, incarceration since it's been a thing.  Incarceration should solely be the purview of the state.  

(07-17-2022, 12:16 PM)pally Wrote: more interested in protecting profits for the management company than anything else

Which, again, is why private "prisons" need to go.  I do find it interesting that their population is decreasing despite a rise in crime.  I expect that in CA, where so many DA's decide not to do their job, but I am surprised to see that in AZ.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-17-2022, 01:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've been against private, for profit, incarceration since it's been a thing.  Incarceration should solely be the purview of the state.  


Which, again, is why private "prisons" need to go.  I do find it interesting that their population is decreasing despite a rise in crime.  I expect that in CA, where so many DA's decide not to do their job, but I am surprised to see that in AZ.

No crime = no fear = no votes for fear mongering. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-18-2022, 03:58 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: No crime = no fear = no votes for fear mongering. 

ON many issues I'd agree with this line of thinking, but not the "progressive" DA's and their soft on criminals approach.  If anything this approach is costing them votes.  Nope, this is being done based purely on ideology in complete disregard for the law, victims of crime and logic.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-18-2022, 04:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: ON many issues I'd agree with this line of thinking, but not the "progressive" DA's and their soft on criminals approach.  If anything this approach is costing them votes.  Nope, this is being done based purely on ideology in complete disregard for the law, victims of crime and logic.

Eh maybe a little. But progressives prey on fear just as much as conservatives, they're just not as good at it.

You have the weight of knowledge. You see all the crime statistics. The average voter (an idiot) will only see what the candidates trot out there. They're going to spend the time doing a deep dive on that kind of thing; they're going to take the politicians at their word, for the most part.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-18-2022, 05:27 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Eh maybe a little. But progressives prey on fear just as much as conservatives, they're just not as good at it.

You have the weight of knowledge. You see all the crime statistics. The average voter (an idiot) will only see what the candidates trot out there. They're going to spend the time doing a deep dive on that kind of thing; they're going to take the politicians at their word, for the most part.

Sadly, your second statement could not be more accurate.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-17-2022, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Slave labor.  That's what he's talking about.

Keeping prisons operating just to have salve labor.

What a country.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/07/14/arizona-cities-would-collapse-without-prison-labor/10062910002/



And the sates pay them with the HOPE they will fill the beds.

I wonder if that leads to dirty business from the judges through the cops?  

Nah....not here.  

I recall Steve Jobs (or maybe it was Tim Cook) making a similar argument when people wanted iPhones made in the US vs overseas.
He said having the phones made with much cheaper overseas labor costs is why the cost wasn't (way) higher for consumers.
So if people wanted those labor jobs to be in the US, the cost of phones was going to rise (a lot).

[GMDino]

(07-18-2022, 05:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I recall Steve Jobs (or maybe it was Tim Cook) making a similar argument when people wanted iPhones made in the US vs overseas.
He said having the phones made with much cheaper overseas labor costs is why the cost wasn't (way) higher for consumers.
So if people wanted those labor jobs to be in the US, the cost of phones was going to rise (a lot).

Consumers love cheap products...and they also want raises for the work they do themselves.

Welcome to America.

[hollodero]

(07-18-2022, 04:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: ON many issues I'd agree with this line of thinking, but not the "progressive" DA's and their soft on criminals approach.  If anything this approach is costing them votes.  Nope, this is being done based purely on ideology in complete disregard for the law, victims of crime and logic.

I don't aim to be controversial, I do not know anything about all that, but I do have a question. How comes that the US still has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world [source]. While at the same time being actually soft on crime in many instances, as you say. I don't get that really.

Is the US populace more prone to crime than any other people, or is police work so splendid that unlike everywhere else no one can get away with a crime (I'd doubt both of these statements), or what is the reason for this imho astonishing number 1 ranking?

[GMDino]

(07-19-2022, 04:06 AM)hollodero Wrote: I don't aim to be controversial, I do not know anything about all that, but I do have a question. How comes that the US still has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world [source]. While at the same time being actually soft on crime in many instances, as you say. I don't get that really.

Is the US populace more prone to crime than any other people, or is police work so splendid that unlike everywhere else no one can get away with a crime (I'd doubt both of these statements), or what is the reason for this imho astonishing number 1 ranking?

Like most problems it has lots of moving parts:

Private prisons to "save money" from the states...they are guaranteed money based on a certain percentage of beds filled.

A legal system that still feels punishment is better than help.

A system where the police can fund their own departments through fines, that if not paid get people arrested and fined more before jail time.

A system that once you are in it,  even if you were not guilty, is expensive and difficult to get out of.

Oh, and a government that introduced a lot of drugs in order to be able to arrest large groups of "others" that they wanted to oppress.  But that's for a different thread.

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Like most problems it has lots of moving parts:

Private prisons to "save money" from the states...they are guaranteed money based on a certain percentage of beds filled.

OK I guess that is an overall bad development, but how does it influence incarceration rates. These private prisons don't write laws or convict people.

(07-19-2022, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: A legal system that still feels punishment is better than help.

Well, but that is true in most countries, not too specific for the US.

(07-19-2022, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, and a government that introduced a lot of drugs in order to be able to arrest large groups of "others" that they wanted to oppress.  But that's for a different thread.

That sounds a bit conspiratorial. I get that addiction is a big factor, but the government actively intending to get people addicted so they can arrest them... that is a step too far for me.

I get the other points and how they might contribute. That they are sufficient to explain an overall worldwide lead (and it's not even close)... I have my doubts.

[GMDino]

(07-19-2022, 09:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK I guess that is an overall bad development, but how does it influence incarceration rates. These private prisons don't write laws or convict people.



Well, but that is true in most countries, not too specific for the US.



That sounds a bit conspiratorial. I get that addiction is a big factor, but the government actively intending to get people addicted so they can arrest them... that is a step too far for me.

I get the other points and how they might contribute. That they are sufficient to explain an overall worldwide lead (and it's not even close)... I have my doubts.

I know it sounds bad.  But there is some history to back it up.

As to the rest America made prisons and policing a business, just like they do everything else.  Must turn a profit and do whatever you have to to get it.

[*Nately120*]

(07-19-2022, 09:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK I guess that is an overall bad development, but how does it influence incarceration rates. These private prisons don't write laws or convict people.



Well, but that is true in most countries, not too specific for the US.



That sounds a bit conspiratorial. I get that addiction is a big factor, but the government actively intending to get people addicted so they can arrest them... that is a step too far for me.

I get the other points and how they might contribute. That they are sufficient to explain an overall worldwide lead (and it's not even close)... I have my doubts.

One of Trump's advisors says he has the evidence to put 300 million Americans in jail, so if you think things are nuts now just wait until 91% of our population is incarcerated!

Invest in for profit prisons before Trump wins in 2024.  Sadly, I'll be locked up for life and unable to reap the benefits.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 04:06 AM)hollodero Wrote: I don't aim to be controversial, I do not know anything about all that, but I do have a question. How comes that the US still has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world [source]. While at the same time being actually soft on crime in many instances, as you say. I don't get that really.

Is the US populace more prone to crime than any other people, or is police work so splendid that unlike everywhere else no one can get away with a crime (I'd doubt both of these statements), or what is the reason for this imho astonishing number 1 ranking?

Like most things the roots of this go way back.  Consider that the people who founded this nation were considered religious extremists in their home countries.  They had very strict views on crimes and their punishments.  This has never gone away and likely won't any time soon.  Because of this a prisoner in the US will generally serve a much longer sentence than their European counterpart.  A very important question regarding the criminal justice system is why the black population accounts for such a large percentage of overall crime.  I know people wince when they hear that, but the numbers are there and they are frighteningly consistent.  Use the UCR for literally any year, here is 2019 (Also, note that for "white" the initial number includes Hispanics, who are often listed not as a race but as an ethnicity);

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43


This, of course, leads us to the discussion of why this is the case. Systemic racism is certainly part of the issue, as is poverty and lack of opportunity.  But it cannot explain all of it, because if those were the driving factors then you would see similar disproportions for Hispanics, who are only slightly over represented, and Native Americans, who are also over represented, but nothing close to the same degree.  And Asians are very much under represented.  There are so many factors that even attempting to discuss all of them would be exhausting under this format.  But, if this problem could be solved, or even mitigated significantly, it would result in a very large drop in overall crime rate.  As inner city gangs account for the vast majority of "mass shootings" this would also make an enormous dent in that issue as well.

BTW, you're one of the people here I'd even have this discussion with.  Many would use this as an opportunity to hurl predictable accusations of racism, which, while predictable, gets old real fast.

[Belsnickel]

(07-19-2022, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Like most things the roots of this go way back.  Consider that the people who founded this nation were considered religious extremists in their home countries.  They had very strict views on crimes and their punishments.  This has never gone away and likely won't any time soon.  Because of this a prisoner in the US will generally serve a much longer sentence than their European counterpart.  A very important question regarding the criminal justice system is why the black population accounts for such a large percentage of overall crime.  I know people wince when they hear that, but the numbers are there and they are frighteningly consistent.  Use the UCR for literally any year, here is 2019 (Also, note that for "white" the initial number includes Hispanics, who are often listed not as a race but as an ethnicity);

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43


This, of course, leads us to the discussion of why this is the case. Systemic racism is certainly part of the issue, as is poverty and lack of opportunity.  But it cannot explain all of it, because if those were the driving factors then you would see similar disproportions for Hispanics, who are only slightly over represented, and Native Americans, who are also over represented, but nothing close to the same degree.  And Asians are very much under represented.  There are so many factors that even attempting to discuss all of them would be exhausting under this format.  But, if this problem could be solved, or even mitigated significantly, it would result in a very large drop in overall crime rate.  As inner city gangs account for the vast majority of "mass shootings" this would also make an enormous dent in that issue as well.

BTW, you're one of the people here I'd even have this discussion with.  Many would use this as an opportunity to hurl predictable accusations of racism, which, while predictable, gets old real fast.

I think one of the things we need to consider in this conversation is that immediately following the end to the majority of slavery in the 19th century, laws were put in place with the aim of charging the newly freed and voting black populous with crimes to enslave them again and get them off the voting rolls. This is the story of the post-Reconstruction South. There are, undoubtedly, many other factors involved as any issue that is this large in scope is highly complex and nuanced. However, we have to recognize that the criminal justice system has been weaponized from the very start to target our black communities to use their labor and keep them from exercising political power in this country.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 12:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think one of the things we need to consider in this conversation is that immediately following the end to the majority of slavery in the 19th century, laws were put in place with the aim of charging the newly freed and voting black populous with crimes to enslave them again and get them off the voting rolls. This is the story of the post-Reconstruction South. There are, undoubtedly, many other factors involved as any issue that is this large in scope is highly complex and nuanced. However, we have to recognize that the criminal justice system has been weaponized from the very start to target our black communities to use their labor and keep them from exercising political power in this country.

I completely agree with all of this.  The sentencing discrepancies between powder and rock cocaine is a recent example.  As you say, there's a huge number of contributing factors to this problem, but to me the biggest issue is that this problem isn't even beginning to be addressed.  If you're white and bring it up you're immediately labeled a racist.  If you're black and bring it up you're an Uncle Tom or a House N-word.  Literally nothing of substance to fix this issue can take place until we acknowledge the problem in the first place.  To Hollo's question regarding our crime rate/incarceration numbers, if the crime rate for black people was even close to proportional we'd have crime rates very closely on par with large European cities.  Think about the huge difference in homicide rates alone, instead of committing ~54% of the homicides it was only 13%.  That's an enormous decrease in the overall rate, over a 40% decrease in homicides nationwide.  What an enormous benefit to literally everyone this would be, but most especially to the black community, who suffer the most from these numbers as most homicides are intraracial. 

But, it's a taboo subject and definitely one no person of prominence is going to dip their toe in.  Hence it will continue as is with stop gap, band aid measures being taken that make little substantive difference.

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Like most things the roots of this go way back.  Consider that the people who founded this nation were considered religious extremists in their home countries.  They had very strict views on crimes and their punishments.  This has never gone away and likely won't any time soon.  Because of this a prisoner in the US will generally serve a much longer sentence than their European counterpart.

Again, not to be controversial, but this seems to be in apparent contradiction to your stance that the country is too soft on criminals. That doesn't sound so soft.
Also, while this might explain a difference towards other western countries, the US not only beats out Europe, but every country in the world. Including the real authoritarian ones with draconian sentences for disobedience or disagreeing with leadership etc.

(07-19-2022, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A very important question regarding the criminal justice system is why the black population accounts for such a large percentage of overall crime.  I know people wince when they hear that, but the numbers are there and they are frighteningly consistent.  Use the UCR for literally any year, here is 2019 (Also, note that for "white" the initial number includes Hispanics, who are often listed not as a race but as an ethnicity);

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43


This, of course, leads us to the discussion of why this is the case. Systemic racism is certainly part of the issue, as is poverty and lack of opportunity.

I am pretty certain these are the major factors, overall. I understand it's not a wholesome explanation though. But I'd guess especially fighting powerty effectively would go a long way.
(Btw. I'd rather trust democrats over republicans on that one, but that's a sidenote)

(07-19-2022, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But it cannot explain all of it, because if those were the driving factors then you would see similar disproportions for Hispanics, who are only slightly over represented, and Native Americans, who are also over represented, but nothing close to the same degree.  And Asians are very much under represented.

Ah well. As for Hispanics, I guess many of them are immigrants, more than black people for sure. Who are often less prone to crime than natural born citizens, that's the case here too. I guess it's because you'd risk not only sentencing, but being thrown out of the country. Also, those who immigrate, I'd wager, are usually not the rapists and murdereres Trump sees in them, that think raping and murdering is so much more fun in the US than in their home country. They rather are ambitious people that want to create something through hard work and not so much through crime.
Asians (and maybe also hispanics and native americans) possibly are faced with a little less prejudice as well, at least when it comes to crime. My impression would be that the stereotypical criminal for many people rather is a black person than an Asian person. So it might be that systemic racism hits blacks harder than the other groups.

Of course I could think of other explanations, but I usually have to delete comments of mine touching this hot iron. I come across as ignorant and slightly racist even to myself - and others - when talking about my thoughts about that. But I will say (and leave it this time) that I think the grim picture painted about the black experience in the US plays a part in it, a picture that is dystopian, often declaring it pretty much pointless to even try to achieve something as a poor black person. The system is so rigged against you and gives you no chance, that's what large parts of the media and popular culture seem to hammer home time and again, employers will harbor prejudice against you, police will beat you up, the man will hold you down in so many different ways. If I were to grow up with the constant affirmation that my race is a disadvantage I - not being a genius or particularly gifted - most likely can never overcome, I'd probably be quite hopeless too and possibly see no other way than to be part of a gang or selling drugs or going the unlawful way in some other manner.

And it apparently starts at a young age, as your figure shows. There might be a neglection factor, which is to be expected when so many adults are already in prison instead of home with their children. A sentiment that might put me in a position contrary to yours, as in I'd possibly advocate being somewhat soft on crime for this reason alone. A parent in prison puts the child on a path. In that and possibly other senses, high incarceration rates amongst a certain community imho have a self-enhancing effect.

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 12:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think one of the things we need to consider in this conversation is that immediately following the end to the majority of slavery in the 19th century, laws were put in place with the aim of charging the newly freed and voting black populous with crimes to enslave them again and get them off the voting rolls.

What would be an example of such a law initially designed to put freed slaves in place that is still in effect today?

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 10:41 AM)Nately120 Wrote: One of Trump's advisors says he has the evidence to put 300 million Americans in jail

Jesus. What did you all do?

And was it the pillow guy? It sounds like the pillow guy...