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[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2017, 08:35 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: About 80% of my coworkers are not American born. More than one has asked me why it's seen as disrespectful.

I guess it's tougher to understand when you come from of a country where indoctrinated patriotism isn't a thing.

I'd be curious to know what country your coworkers come from where they don't understand why it is seen as disrespectful not to render honors when their Nation's Anthem is played while their Nation's flag is being presented.

Do you want to let me in on it?  

[CKwi88]

(10-09-2017, 09:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Obviously many of your coworkers aren't American citizens.  However, if they came from Nations with a little pride, perhaps they would understand.

Quite a number of them are American citizens. I will confess to not knowing individually though. And i guess that people don't equate not standing with not having pride. 

(10-09-2017, 09:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd be curious to know what country your coworkers come from where they don't understand why it is seen as disrespectful not to render honors when their Nation's Anthem is played while their Nation's flag is being presented.

Do you want to let me in on it?  

I have co-workers from Spain, Portugal and all over Central and South America.  Perhaps my original post was unclear:

Quote:More than one has asked me why it's seen as disrespectful.

Much like the entirety of this silly faux-outrage over the kneeling, it has never had anything to do with the flag or disrespect of it or the importance of such respect. The "it" refers to the act of kneeling, as in "why is kneeling seen as disrespectful?" Many of my coworkers, foreign-born and American alike, see kneeling as a sign of reverence/solemnity, and not disrespect. 

Perhaps there is a boilerplate military-esque response you can let me in on. 

[MrRager]

(10-09-2017, 09:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So you think Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Sailors are buried with a symbol of a "system"?

Or is it possible the Flag has always represented far more than that? To me it represents freedom and unity.

I am sure it means different things to different people. There is no universal meaning. I personally don't think it represents strictly our military. It might even mean freedom and unity to those kneeling, but the government and many people in the nation are propagating just the opposite. I don't know exactly how they feel, but I'd guess they won't stand until people and the government of those people promote unity for everyone. It can represent one thing, but until the people who run this nation and the people of this nation actually promote and act to spread that meaning then it is ultimately meaningless. 

Edit: And not directed at you, but I love how the same people who are outraged over this generally overlap with the people who are upset about PC culture and "snowflakes." I guess if it is someone/something you feel are getting disrespected they aren't snowflakes anymore and those people kneeling need to be more politically correct! But me being upset when you use a disparaging word for gay people is PC culture and they are just little sensitive snowflakes.

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2017, 10:38 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Quite a number of them are American citizens. I will confess to not knowing individually though. And i guess that people don't equate not standing with not having pride. 


I have co-workers from Spain, Portugal and all over Central and South America.  Perhaps my original post was unclear:


Much like the entirety of this silly faux-outrage over the kneeling, it has never had anything to do with the flag or disrespect of it or the importance of such respect. The "it" refers to the act of kneeling, as in "why is kneeling seen as disrespectful?" Many of my coworkers, foreign-born and American alike, see kneeling as a sign of reverence/solemnity, and not disrespect. 

Perhaps there is a boilerplate military-esque response you can let me in on. 

I assume you explained to your foreign-born coworkers (I take it you are the one they come to for all things American) why not rendering honors when your Nation Anthem being played and your Nation's flag being presented is not disrespectful. Hell, it's disrespectful to their employer as the company policy is to stand and place your hand over your heart. 

I guess the fact that they are foreign born added merit to your story and facilitated the "ignorant American" stance. Their is no "boilerplate military-esque response" that I am aware if; it's simply rendering proper courtesy to your Nation's Anthem and Flag. Never new that principle deviated much from country to country. There are countries not as steeped in Patriotism as the USA, but the reason for not paying respects is the same: Disrespect.   

[SunsetBengal]

(10-09-2017, 10:38 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Quite a number of them are American citizens. I will confess to not knowing individually though. And i guess that people don't equate not standing with not having pride. 


I have co-workers from Spain, Portugal and all over Central and South America.  Perhaps my original post was unclear:


Much like the entirety of this silly faux-outrage over the kneeling, it has never had anything to do with the flag or disrespect of it or the importance of such respect. The "it" refers to the act of kneeling, as in "why is kneeling seen as disrespectful?" Many of my coworkers, foreign-born and American alike, see kneeling as a sign of reverence/solemnity, and not disrespect. 

Perhaps there is a boilerplate military-esque response you can let me in on. 

If they don't get it, I'm guessing that they just memorized meaningless lines in order to pass the test for citizenship?  

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2017, 11:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If they don't get it, I'm guessing that they just memorized meaningless lines in order to pass the test for citizenship?  

I'm a huge International Soccer fan. I'll have to pay attention to what the Spanish and Portuguese fans do when their Nation's Anthem is played; because apparently standing is not the way to show respect. 

[Vlad]

(10-08-2017, 10:15 PM)mhbsavant Wrote: A bunch of idiots on this post....



I don't like mayonnaise....until Helmans stop making it, I won't buy anything Helmans makes. Give me a break and shut up. Veterans died for the right to protest, not for a piece of cloth..... what yall shoukd be mad about is the NFL charges the government for these acts of patriotism......so, with that being said, if there was no money involved, the NFL wouldn't even csre about a national amthem....so, what makes you think they care that you watch it or not... #CrazyHillbillys

No, veterans didn't die or they wouldn't be veterans.

And just so you know, veterans are divided on the issue.

I bet that if a dead soldier could speak he would tell you he didn't die just so you liberals could shit, burn, or disrespect the flag.

Only a piece of cloth huh? If someone spits on that picture of your mother or someone you love, is it only a piece of paper?

Name one positive outcome that these protests produced? Nada, only negative, as in any liberal cause,...protests based on a lie that a disproportioante number of blacks are killed by cops unjustly..

[CKwi88]

(10-09-2017, 11:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If they don't get it, I'm guessing that they just memorized meaningless lines in order to pass the test for citizenship?  

I would guess that, much like our flag, pledge, anthem, whathaveyou, the meaning is completely dependent on the person reciting them. I know for a fact that some people have just gone through the motions to get their citizenship. I can also guarantee that becoming a citizen has been a deeply emotional and personally gratifying experience for many, having seen friends go through the process. 

[CKwi88]

(10-09-2017, 11:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm a huge International Soccer fan. I'll have to pay attention to what the Spanish and Portuguese fans do when their Nation's Anthem is played; because apparently standing is not the way to show respect. 

Who has said that?

[MrRager]

(10-09-2017, 11:31 PM)Vlad Wrote: No, veterans didn't die or they wouldn't be veterans.

And just so you know, veterans are divided on the issue.

I bet that if a dead soldier could speak he would tell you he didn't die just so you could shit on the flag.

Only a piece of cloth huh? If someone spits on that picture of your mother or someone you love, is it only a piece of paper?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to your death the right to say it." or whatever the Hall quote is. This is what I would hope any person be they a veteran or dead solder would say. 
And yeah its just a piece of paper. They didn't spit on my actual mother...

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2017, 11:38 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Who has said that?

DISRESPECT: to lack special regard or respect for


If standing for your National Anthem is a sign of respect, what is choosing not to stand for it?


As I said: Kudos to Rager for understanding that the act is one of disrespect; yet still supports folks choosing to do so. I do not agree with it, but at least the stance is earnest. Perhaps your foreign born coworkers could speak with him

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2017, 11:41 PM)MrRager Wrote: And yeah its just a piece of paper. They didn't spit on my actual mother...

Are you married?

If so, do you view your wedding ring as just another piece of jewelry?

[CKwi88]

(10-09-2017, 11:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: DISRESPECT: to lack special regard or respect for


If standing for your National Anthem is a sign of respect, what is choosing not to stand for it?


As I said: Kudos to Rager for understanding that the act is one of disrespect; yet still supports folks choosing to do so. I do not agree with it, but at least the stance is earnest. Perhaps your foreign born coworkers could speak with him

Again, who has said standing is not a form of respect? 

I guess the disconnect is that some would argue there is more than one way to show respect for your flag, rather than the absolutist nature of your post. Is there anything saying that one must stand for the flag to show respect? Or that anything other than standing is disrespect? 

[GMDino]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/28/16378846/nfl-protests-trump-nick-wright

Quote:To drive this point home, he explained the origins of the protest: “Colin Kaepernick was sitting. He wasn’t kneeling. He was sitting. Why did he start to kneel? Because he got with a Navy SEAL, Nate Boyer. Talked with Nate Boyer. Nate Boyer, who sacrificed as much as anyone can for this country without giving their life or limb. Nate Boyer says he respects Kaep and says, ‘Hey, it would sit better with us if you kneel.’ Kaep says, ‘No problem. I can still get my point across.’”


In short, Kaepernick and other protesters have actually worked with military veterans to be minimally offensive. To this end, Wright pointed out that none of the players involved have actually gone on television and used the protests to slam the military or American ideals.

“I have not heard one soundbite of a player being anti-military, of a player outwardly attacking the fundamentals of what this country is supposed to be,” he said. “This is a protest about whether or not the country has fulfilled its promise of equal protection under the law to all of its citizenry. And that conversation is one no one wants to have. That conversation is uncomfortable for people. So people literally drape themselves in the flag as a defense of it.”

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2017, 12:03 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Again, who has said standing is not a form of respect? 

I guess the disconnect is that some would argue there is more than one way to show respect for your flag, rather than the absolutist nature of your post. Is there anything saying that one must stand for the flag to show respect? Or that anything other than standing is disrespect? 

I think it is universally accepted that standing for your flag and anthem is a sign of respect. If you choose not to do that; you're failing to show respect (aka disrespect).

If we are to believe your narrative and agree that folks not standing for the Anthem are showing respect for the Nation; then why are they doing it? Cramps, saving energy, getting a better view of the Flag?  They are kneeling for one reason and that reason is to not respect the flag and the Nation for which it stands. 

[GMDino]

(10-10-2017, 12:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it is universally accepted that standing for your flag and anthem is a sign of respect. If you choose not to do that; you're failing to show respect (aka disrespect).

If we are to believe your narrative and agree that folks not standing for the Anthem are showing respect for the Nation; then why are they doing it? Cramps, saving energy, getting a better view of the Flag?  They are kneeling for one reason and that reason is to not respect the flag and the Nation for which it stands. 

[CKwi88]

(10-10-2017, 12:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it is universally accepted that standing for your flag and anthem is a sign of respect. If you choose not to do that; you're failing to show respect (aka disrespect).

If we are to believe your narrative and agree that folks not standing for the Anthem are showing respect for the Nation; then why are they doing it? Cramps, saving energy, getting a better view of the Flag?  They are kneeling for one reason and that reason is to not respect the flag and the Nation for which it stands. 

So....nobody said that standing is not the way to show respect?

And I guess you know why they are doing it better than the people doing the actual kneeling. I had thought they made it abundantly clear why they are kneeling. Perhaps you haven't listened to them. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2017, 12:18 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: So....nobody said that standing is not the way to show respect?

And I guess you know why they are doing it better than the people doing the actual kneeling. I had thought they made it abundantly clear why they are kneeling. Perhaps you haven't listened to them. 

Sure they did; if they said not standing is not showing disrespect.

I've listened plenty and just because you say/think you are not disrespecting the Flag and the Nation for which it stands does not mean you are not doing exactly that.

Kaep started the movement and he did it for one reason. To draw attention to his cause by choosing not to respect to the Flag 

[*Nately120*]

(10-09-2017, 11:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm a huge International Soccer fan. I'll have to pay attention to what the Spanish and Portuguese fans do when their Nation's Anthem is played; because apparently standing is not the way to show respect. 

My limited experience with foreigners and their confusion with our version of patriotism is that Americans seem to treat being patriotic as a sort of contest that glorifies you as an individual and criticizes others who don't show patriotism in the way you see fit. That and we don't seem to be very aware (or care) when people are implementing patriotism as a simple marketing tool to influence us and/or take our money.

We seem to be keen on watching people and waiting for them to love this country less than we do so we can point it out and feel like heroes...or some such.

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2017, 12:25 AM)Nately120 Wrote: My limited experience with foreigners and their confusion with our version of patriotism is that Americans seem to treat being patriotic as a sort of contest that glorifies you as an individual and criticizes others who don't show patriotism in the way you see fit.  That and we don't seem to be very aware (or care) when people are implementing patriotism as a simple marketing tool to influence us and/or take our money.

We seem to be keen on watching people and waiting for them to love this country less than we do so we can point it out and feel like heroes...or some such.

Okey Dokey, but also in your limited experience with foreigners do they understand that standing and rendering honors while their Nation's anthem is showing respect and choosing not to do so is a sign of not giving respect (aka disrespect)?