Baltimore Police Afraid?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83499266/

Snippet
"As the number of shootings and homicides has surged in Baltimore, some police officers say they feel hesitant on the job under intense public scrutiny and in the wake of criminal charges against six officers in the Freddie Gray case."

This isn't true, it can't be, they are professionals and have a job to do. The article also points out that in the past 30 days, there have been 40 shootings and 15 homicides.

If this is true and police officers are afraid, just do your damn job please, you were hired to protect and serve. Do your job or find another please.

[JustWinBaby]

(05-20-2015, 01:46 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: If this is true and police officers are afraid, just do your damn job please, you were hired to protect and serve. Do your job or find another please.

I think they're afraid of doing their job and ending up in court facing murder charges. One way to avoid mistakes and misunderstanding when you engage is to simply choose not to engage.

[Belsnickel]

(05-20-2015, 04:38 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I think they're afraid of doing their job and ending up in court facing murder charges.  One way to avoid mistakes and misunderstanding when you engage is to simply choose not to engage.

There is also the option of following protocol. I'm just saying. Any cop will tell you that if you follow protocol and you have a death you caused on your hands, you are at least protected because you stayed within the parameters of your job. The officers now charged did not follow protocol.

[Brownshoe]

(05-20-2015, 07:44 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is also the option of following protocol. I'm just saying. Any cop will tell you that if you follow protocol and you have a death you caused on your hands, you are at least protected because you stayed within the parameters of your job. The officers now charged did not follow protocol.

You know how hard it is to follow protocol when shit hits the fan? I used to work at a prison, and it was hard to follow protocol in there. I would think it's almost impossible to when you're a police officer.

[Belsnickel]

(05-20-2015, 08:34 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You know how hard it is to follow protocol when shit hits the fan? I used to work at a prison, and it was hard to follow protocol in there. I would think it's almost impossible to when you're a police officer.

It may sound harsh, but if you can't follow protocol then you aren't in the right job. They are there for a reason, even for when shit hits the fan. We're all human, and mistakes happen, but being cool under pressure is a trait that is necessary fro a police officer. If they can't handle the heat then they need to get out of the kitchen.

[Brownshoe]

(05-20-2015, 09:06 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It may sound harsh, but if you can't follow protocol then you aren't in the right job. They are there for a reason, even for when shit hits the fan. We're all human, and mistakes happen, but being cool under pressure is a trait that is necessary fro a police officer. If they can't handle the heat then they need to get out of the kitchen.

Then we wouldn't have any police officers. It's easy to act like police officers should be like Robocop, but the people who you think should be police officers tend to get better jobs in law enforcement.

[Belsnickel]

(05-20-2015, 09:22 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Then we wouldn't have any police officers. It's easy to act like police officers should be like Robocop, but the people who you think should be police officers tend to get better jobs in law enforcement.

They have to get their start somewhere. And the people that really care about the job will stay around there. I used to run EMS and the same trait of being cool under pressure is needed there, same for fire/rescue. Those guys are either volunteers or not paid very well, but they continue to do what they do because they love it. In every one of those professions if you do not follow the protocols in an emergency situation you can cause a death. In every one of those professions if you do not follow the protocols in an emergency situation you are not protected against the liability. That is how it should be.

[SteelCitySouth]

(05-20-2015, 08:34 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You know how hard it is to follow protocol when shit hits the fan? I used to work at a prison, and it was hard to follow protocol in there. I would think it's almost impossible to when you're a police officer.

What exact "shit" was hitting the fan when the officers in Baltimore decided they needed to take the arrested perp on a rough ride? Was there intense afternoon traffic that caused the officer driving the vehicle to have to perform evasive maneuvers to protect the lives of his fellow officers?

[JustWinBaby]

(05-20-2015, 09:54 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: What exact "shit" was hitting the fan when the officers in Baltimore decided they needed to take the arrested perp on a rough ride?  

I don't believe at this point that's fact. It will be for a jury to decide. As of now, the only protocol we know they violated was a restraint policy implemented literally days before.

And following protocol can still land you in court defending yourself, so when the mob demands a trial even when policy was followed to the letter, officers are going to have pause. There's a reason officers have greater protections than you or I walking down the street, and if you want to take that away you will see them choosing not to engage more.

[Belsnickel]

(05-20-2015, 11:48 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And following protocol can still land you in court defending yourself, so when the mob demands a trial even when policy was followed to the letter, officers are going to have pause.  There's a reason officers have greater protections than you or I walking down the street, and if you want to take that away you will see them choosing not to engage more.

It shouldn't land them in court, though. I agree that when we demand a trial when they followed protocol it will inhibit their job. At the same time, this isn't something that says we should not question policies or protocols. Just that if an officer is following the guidelines they are supposed to be following we should not be bringing criminal charges. If the public feels that the policy needs to change then push for that change, but we can't blame officers for doing their jobs within the rules provided to them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-20-2015, 12:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It shouldn't land them in court, though. I agree that when we demand a trial when they followed protocol it will inhibit their job. At the same time, this isn't something that says we should not question policies or protocols. Just that if an officer is following the guidelines they are supposed to be following we should not be bringing criminal charges. If the public feels that the policy needs to change then push for that change, but we can't blame officers for doing their jobs within the rules provided to them.

The biggest reason for this apprehension, which btw is a much better description than fear, is, from what I've heard and understand, the charges brought against the officers for false imprisonment related to a wrongful arrest. LEO's do not, and cannot, know every law on the books. This is especially true as laws are constantly changing/morphing. This is not confined to LEO's btw, I've seen ADAs make similar mistakes as it is virtually impossible to know the entirety of the penal code. If you arrest someone for an illegal knife that turns out to actually be legal you are protected by a lack of criminal intent during the normal commission of your jobs duties. If it was a butter knife then the "reasonable person" would not believe the knife to be illegal. The line between what makes a folding knife illegal or legal can be a matter of an 1/8" or a small double edge near the tip of the blade. To charge an LEO with illegal arrest and false imprisonment over such an issue essentially paralyzes their ability to efficiently do their job and is, quite simply the most egregious example of Mosley's pandering to a riotous mob.


When you, as an LEO, know that you can be completely sold out by a state's attorney for reasons other than legal you are going to approach your job with a sizable, and understandable, amount of apprehension.

[Belsnickel]

(05-20-2015, 01:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The biggest reason for this apprehension, which btw is a much better description than fear, is, from what I've heard and understand, the charges brought against the officers for false imprisonment related to a wrongful arrest.  LEO's do not, and cannot, know every law on the books.  This is especially true as laws are constantly changing/morphing.  This is not confined to LEO's btw, I've seen ADAs make similar mistakes as it is virtually impossible to know the entirety of the penal code.  If you arrest someone for an illegal knife that turns out to actually be legal you are protected by a lack of criminal intent during the normal commission of your jobs duties.  If it was a butter knife then the "reasonable person" would not believe the knife to be illegal.  The line between what makes a folding knife illegal or legal can be a matter of an 1/8" or a small double edge near the tip of the blade.  To charge an LEO with illegal arrest and false imprisonment over such an issue essentially paralyzes their ability to efficiently do their job and is, quite simply the most egregious example of Mosley's pandering to a riotous mob.  


When you, as an LEO, know that you can be completely sold out by a state's attorney for reasons other than legal you are going to approach your job with a sizable, and understandable, amount of apprehension.

See, all of that I can understand. wasn't this the case where they denied medical attention as well? That is the part that, to me, is the most egregious and if it hadn't happened, there would likely not have been any other charges forthcoming.

Like I said earlier, I get that mistakes are made. We can't all remember everything, this is why most accountants have one of their textbooks stashed somewhere for reference. There is a lot of information that has to be sorted through.

There is a term called "good faith effort" that is in law, and in the business world, that is a very abstract concept. But essentially it is the same as you refer to about the reasonable person. An honest mistake is an honest mistake and it shouldn't be criminal. Sometimes people go too far with the handling of the aftermath, and sometimes people are doing more than just making honest mistakes. I think both occurred in Baltimore.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-20-2015, 01:19 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: See, all of that I can understand. wasn't this the case where they denied medical attention as well? That is the part that, to me, is the most egregious and if it hadn't happened, there would likely not have been any other charges forthcoming.

It depends on who you believe. When arresting someone if they request medical attention, which happens frequently, you have to, depending on policy, get them such attention within a reasonable time frame. Unless it's life threatening you do not have to stop everything you're doing and immediately call the paramedics.

Quote:Like I said earlier, I get that mistakes are made. We can't all remember everything, this is why most accountants have one of their textbooks stashed somewhere for reference. There is a lot of information that has to be sorted through.

Which is exactly why the charges of false imprisonment are asinine and pandering.

Quote:There is a term called "good faith effort" that is in law, and in the business world, that is a very abstract concept. But essentially it is the same as you refer to about the reasonable person. An honest mistake is an honest mistake and it shouldn't be criminal. Sometimes people go too far with the handling of the aftermath, and sometimes people are doing more than just making honest mistakes. I think both occurred in Baltimore.

We use the term, "due diligence", but the concept is the same. While I agree it's possible that they arrested Grey even though they knew the knife was legal there's no way to prove that. That being the case these charges are, again, asinine and pandering. I'm not commenting on any other charges, although I have previously stated that the depraved heart murder is a stupid over charge. However, it's these exact charges that have caused the atmosphere of apprehension among the Baltimore PD. At the very least this is my understanding based on accounts and common sense stemming from professional experience.

[SunsetBengal]

Only thread relevant to the Freddie Gray case, so I figured this one was as good as any to post this.

http://www.thepcgraveyard.com/2015/07/31/evidence-that-baltimore-prosecutor-mosby-may-have-framed-6-cops/


[quoteprosecutors allegedly withheld statements from witnesses who said that Grey had been banging against the inside of the van and rocking it on the day of his arrest. It has also been asserted that prosecutors received evidence that Freddie Grey tried to hurt himself during previous arrests. Both of these items were withheld from defense attorneys, raising questions about the ethics of Mosby. Hiding exculpatory evidence is grounds for disbarment.][/quote]

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-08-2015, 07:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Only thread relevant to the Freddie Gray case, so I figured this one was as good as any to post this.

http://www.thepcgraveyard.com/2015/07/31/evidence-that-baltimore-prosecutor-mosby-may-have-framed-6-cops/

Quote:prosecutors allegedly withheld statements from witnesses who said that Grey had been banging against the inside of the van and rocking it on the day of his arrest.  It has also been asserted that prosecutors received evidence that Freddie Grey tried to hurt himself during previous arrests.  Both of these items were withheld from defense attorneys, raising questions about the ethics of Mosby.  Hiding exculpatory evidence is grounds for disbarment.

I don't know how much to believe information from such a less than mainstream (i.e. reasonably credible) source.  I will say that I had a discussion with my uncle, who is formerly a county ADA, former US attorney and current judge and he completely concurred with my assessment that Mosby conducted herself in an extremely unprofessional manner during this case.  I've said it before, as long ago as the Ben Roeth DTF case, a prosecutor should be about upholding the law, not pandering, grandstanding or moralizing.  Mosby hit the trifecta and, as I've also said before, I think it's going to blow up in her face.  Some of those officers might be guilty of something, but with Mosby prosecuting the case I doubt any of them receive any legal consequences.

[StLucieBengal]

Mosby and the Baltimore Mayor have been disgraceful.

Both should be ran outta town.

[BmorePat87]

I posted about this on the old boards immediately after the riots. An anonymous cop said that they're afraid to go anywhere without 3-4 other guys (both because of people wanting to ambush cops and because of accusations), so they started to patrol less and only respond to serious calls.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-08-2015, 11:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I posted about this on the old boards immediately after the riots. An anonymous cop said that they're afraid to go anywhere without 3-4 other guys (both because of people wanting to ambush cops and because of accusations), so they started to patrol less and only respond to serious calls.

Why have they not removed that mayor? She is at fault for all this... It's a shame your town has become this, sorry to hear this

[fredtoast]

The mayor and the DA were not the ones who killed a detauinee under unusal circumstances. If the police want to solve their probems with the public they need to look at themselves because they have no one else to balme.

"Wah! Wah! We killed some guy in our custody, but it is the mayors fault or the DA's fault, not ours! And if they dare to even investigate us overit we are going to quit doing our jobs. Don't they know about the rule that we are all supposed to lie to protect policemen who do something wrong."

Cops lie tpo protect each other. That is well known by everyone. In fact some cops even brag about it. So when the shit hits the fan i don't know why they would suspect the public to trust them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-09-2015, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The mayor and the DA were not the ones who killed a detauinee under unusal circumstances.  If the police want to solve their probems with the public they need to look at themselves because they have no one else to balme.

"Wah! Wah! We killed some guy in our custody, but it is the mayors fault or the DA's fault, not ours!  And if they dare to even investigate us overit we are going to quit doing our jobs. Don't they know about the rule that we are all supposed to lie to protect policemen who do something wrong."

Cops lie tpo protect each other.  That  is well known by everyone.  In fact some cops even brag about it.  So when the shit hits the fan i don't know why they would suspect the public to trust them.

You did an outstanding job of ignoring the points made above.  You're capable of some very good posts and you're capable of hyperbolic crap posts.  This is certainly the latter.