Ben Carson: It was OK for me to do research on aborted fetuses

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-16-2015, 06:10 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I agree. Whether you like it or not that is a living being inside of a woman, and even though it can't survive on it's own doesn't mean that it shouldn't have rights. The only time I support abortion is if the mothers health is being compromised. Otherwise I see no justified reason to kill an innocent life for inconvenience.

Does that apply to fertilized eggs used during in vitro fertilization?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-16-2015, 11:14 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Just curious about something...Do those of you that believe in the woman's right to abortion because you feel it's her body and her choice feel that there's nothing wrong with a woman abusing alcohol or drugs while pregnant?

If the woman intends to keep the baby, yes, it is wrong.  But, isn't drug and alcohol abuse wrong period?

Some states have enacted laws to protect the fetus in cases such as you describe, some with unintended consequences.  However, it is difficult to quantify the potential benefits of such laws, also.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-16-2015, 11:30 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: So you don't believe that a state has a right to charge a mother with a crime for the abuse of drug or alcohol consumption while pregnant?

I'm not suggesting that you condone the behavior, mind you.  Just wanting to clarify whether you believe it's a crime or not.  

By drugs, I assume you mean illicit drugs used during recreational drug use; marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, heroine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, morphine, etc.

Those are already illegal.

If we're talking alcohol, if the woman is of legal drinking age it may or may not be a crime depending upon the state.  Whether it is a crime or not, alcohol abuse during pregnancy is "AMA," against medical advice.

If a woman doesn't take her pre-natal vitamins, is that a crime?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 03:05 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: The same could be said about men and alcohol. So, should alcohol be banned?

No, it can't.  Spermatogenesis doesn't begin until puberty and is ongoing.  Billions of new sperm cells will be produced in a man's lifetime.  Thus the potential for damage to the genetic material from ingested substances, radiation, etc is greatly reduced compared to a woman's ova.

Quote:The answer is yes (to your question), because it's affecting the potential to life, and not the unborn baby.

I don't understand the seeming incongruity of your opinion knowing if you damage the ova you damage the baby.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 03:15 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Please show me a direct quote of mine in which I declared to be open-minded ABOUT ABORTION.  You won't find such a quote, because I've never made such a statement.  I said that I'm an open-minded person.  There is a large difference.  Having a concrete belief on one thing doesn't make me not be a open-minded person. 

I already showed you.

Quote:The insults on my intelligence or lack of common sense are a declaration of superiority, are they not?  Again, if you're going to declare yourself as intellectually superior to someone on a message board, you might want to learn some reading comprehension skills first.  Especially considering that you seem unable to grasp what you said yourself. 

You should follow your own advice or grow thicker skin.  Are you too obtuse to understand you initiated the insults?

Quote:With that said, it's no wonder that you don't understand the difference between me saying that I'm an open-minded person and saying that I'm open-minded on abortion.  

Why did you even bother to tell me how open minded you are when we are discussing abortion if you aren't open minded about the topic of discussion?  Because you wanted me to know how damn open minded you are.

[Brownshoe]

(08-17-2015, 03:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Does that apply to fertilized eggs used during in vitro fertilization?

yes

[Brownshoe]

(08-17-2015, 04:11 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I don't understand the seeming incongruity of your opinion knowing if you damage the ova you damage the baby.

Because the ovum isn't a human being. It's a part of the woman.

[Brownshoe]

(08-17-2015, 04:11 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No, it can't.  Spermatogenesis doesn't begin until puberty and is ongoing.  Billions of new sperm cells will be produced in a man's lifetime.  Thus the potential for damage to the genetic material from ingested substances, radiation, etc is greatly reduced compared to a woman's ova.

I don't understand the seeming incongruity of your opinion knowing if you damage the ova you damage the baby.

What study has shown that drinking will effect a woman's ovum? I can't find anything on google stating that's the case. The only thing I can find is that drinking decreases the fertility in women.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 04:27 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: yes

My wife and I did IVF at Walter Reed.  She produced eight ova for our round of IVF.  All eight were fertilized via intracytoplasmic injection.  Four of the eight developed into blastocysts and were transferred to my wife's uterus.  One implanted successfully.  Who should be charged with the premeditated, mass murder of the other seven?

If all eight ova developed into blastocysts and the doctor only selected four to transfer, should my wife be forced to give birth to four more children because of your belief all eight blastocysts are individual humans with individual rights?

If the doctor selected all eight blastocyst and all eight implanted, should a woman be forced to give birth to all eight knowing that multiparity increases mortality? Or should the doctor reduce the number of embryos in utero to increase the chance of survival for the remaining embryos and the mother?  Remember Nadya Sulemon?  Did she do the morally right thing?

What should happen with the embryos not used during IVF?  What should happen with the approximately 400,000 embryos stored in cryopreservation?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 04:28 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Because the ovum isn't a human being. It's apart of the woman.

An embryo isn't a part of the woman until it implants successfully.  The chance of a success implantation is no better than the flip of a coin.  Fifty percent of those "people" never become people because they never resulted in pregnancy.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 04:35 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What study has shown that drinking will effect a woman's ovum? I can't find anything on google stating that's the case. The only thing I can find is that drinking decreases the fertility in women.

I encourage you to question everything I tell you and seek your own answer.  I suggest you speak with a fertility specialist rather than search the internet for studies if you want to know if what I told you is correct.  I will tell you there is a reason why we use gonad shields during xrays, CTs, etc.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-17-2015, 04:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I already showed you.

You should follow your own advice or grow thicker skin.  Are you too obtuse to understand you initiated the insults?
Why did you even bother to tell me how open minded you are when we are discussing abortion if you aren't open minded about the topic of discussion?  Because you wanted me to know how damn open minded you are.

No, you haven't showed me where in my exact words that I claimed to be open-minded on abortion.  You showed a quote that I made expressing that I consider myself to be an open-minded guy.  I said that in response to a post stating that I'm closed-minded, and that's why I brought that into the discussion.

You're either being OBTUSE again here, or you're just plain ignorant.   

Either way, I've clearly stated that I am NOT open-minded on the topic of abortion. 

Now that we have that key part of the discussion out of the way, perhaps we could get back on topic.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-17-2015, 04:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: By drugs, I assume you mean illicit drugs used during recreational drug use; marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, heroine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, morphine, etc.

Those are already illegal.

If we're talking alcohol, if the woman is of legal drinking age it may or may not be a crime depending upon the state.  Whether it is a crime or not, alcohol abuse during pregnancy is "AMA," against medical advice.

If a woman doesn't take her pre-natal vitamins, is that a crime?

The reason that I asked this question is because I wanted to see if posters who believe in pro-choice under the grounds that the baby deserves no rights and that it's her body were consistent in those thoughts among different types of scenarios. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 05:12 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: No, you haven't showed me where in my exact words that I claimed to be open-minded on abortion.  You showed a quote that I made expressing that I consider myself to be an open-minded guy.  I said that in response to a post stating that I'm closed-minded, and that's why I brought that into the discussion.

You're either being OBTUSE again here, or you're just plain ignorant.   

Either way, I've clearly stated that I am NOT open-minded on the topic of abortion. 

Now that we have that key part of the discussion out of the way, perhaps we could get back on topic.  

I have had enough of your nonsense. Go to your room. No internet for a week.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4emcNAf5lY

I didn't want to go all Yul Brynner on your ass, but you brought it on yourself.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 05:16 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: The reason that I asked this question is because I wanted to see if posters who believe in pro-choice under the grounds that the baby deserves no rights and that it's her body were consistent in those thoughts among different types of scenarios. 

You will get as many different opinions about that as you will about abortion.

[Brownshoe]

(08-17-2015, 05:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: My wife and I did IVF at Walter Reed.  She produced eight ova for our round of IVF.  All eight were fertilized via intracytoplasmic injection.  Four of the eight developed into blastocysts and were transferred to my wife's uterus.  One implanted successfully.  Who should be charged with the premeditated, mass murder of the other seven?

If all eight ova developed into blastocysts and the doctor only selected four to transfer, should my wife be forced to give birth to four more children because of your belief all eight blastocysts are individual humans with individual rights?

If the doctor selected all eight blastocyst and all eight implanted, should a woman be forced to give birth to all eight knowing that multiparity increases mortality? Or should the doctor reduce the number of embryos in utero to increase the chance of survival for the remaining embryos and the mother?  Remember Nadya Sulemon?  Did she do the morally right thing?

What should happen with the embryos not used during IVF?  What should happen with the approximately 400,000 embryos stored in cryopreservation?

The ones that were not successfully implanted died of natural causes, because not all fertilized eggs are able to implant themselves into the womb. The ones that did not develop into blastocyst were due to an irregularity in the sperm or egg which is also normal in nature, and they rarely implant in the womb thus dieing of natural causes.

If she agreed to having that procedure done then yes. If she agreed to it then nothing is being forced on her.

Maybe the doctor should reduce the number of ova that they fertilize, and inject. If something has a health risk to the mother that's an exception.

The doctors should only fertilize the amount of ova that they will be using.

[Brownshoe]

(08-17-2015, 05:05 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: An embryo isn't a part of the woman until it implants successfully.  The chance of a success implantation is no better than the flip of a coin.  Fifty percent of those "people" never become people because they never resulted in pregnancy.

An embryo is never a part of the woman. It is merely attached to a woman. If the fertilized egg does not implant then it's just dieing of natural causes.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-17-2015, 05:37 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: An embryo is never apart of the woman. It is merely attached to a woman. If the fertilized egg does not implant then it's just dieing of natural causes.

apart
 [url=http://static.sfdict.com/staticrep/dictaudio/A05/A0580200.mp3][/url]

[uh-pahrt] /əˈpɑrt/
Spell Syllables

• Examples
• Word Origin
  
  
  

adverb
1.
into pieces or parts; to pieces:
to take a watch apart; an old barn falling apart from decay.
2.
separately in place, time, motion, etc.:
New York and Tokyo are thousands of miles apart. Our birthdays are three days apart.
3.
to or at one side, with respect to place, purpose, or function:
to put money apart for education; to keep apart from the group out of pride.
4.
separately or individually in consideration:
each factor viewed apart from the others.
5.
aside (used with a gerund or noun):
Joking apart, what do you think?
adjective
6.
having independent or unique qualities, features, or characteristics (usually used following the noun it modifies):
a class apart.

[*bfine32*]

(08-17-2015, 02:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Show me where Benton argued you can't be against abortion in his post because I don't see it.

Guy, he admitted he did it; claims he did it on purpose. I'm not sure what else you need.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-17-2015, 05:46 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: apart
 [url=http://static.sfdict.com/staticrep/dictaudio/A05/A0580200.mp3][/url]

[uh-pahrt] /əˈpɑrt/
Spell Syllables

• Examples
• Word Origin
  
  
  

adverb
1.
into pieces or parts; to pieces:
to take a watch apart; an old barn falling apart from decay.
2.
separately in place, time, motion, etc.:
New York and Tokyo are thousands of miles apart. Our birthdays are three days apart.
3.
to or at one side, with respect to place, purpose, or function:
to put money apart for education; to keep apart from the group out of pride.
4.
separately or individually in consideration:
each factor viewed apart from the others.
5.
aside (used with a gerund or noun):
Joking apart, what do you think?
adjective
6.
having independent or unique qualities, features, or characteristics (usually used following the noun it modifies):
a class apart.

Well that was mature.