Bengals reportedly "making push" to keep Vincent Rey

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 01:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You keep bringing up tackles, but you are yet to answer this:
Are 15 tackles after a play has already gained 5+ yards better than 5 tackles that prevent more plays from occurring?

Maybe you have to prove the that this is a relevant question before it deserves an answer.  Plus if no tackle is made on a play then it is a td.  So overall this question is kind of silly.



Vinny Rey is a solid BACK UP.  I want is to keep him, but not pay him like a starter.  I think most people would agree with this.

[GreenCornBengal]

Let's just retain A.J. Hawk and call it good

[Essex Johnson]

(02-18-2016, 01:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This post is gibberish.

Hawk should be cut.
Lamur is a FA and should be let go.

You keep bringing up tackles, but you are yet to answer this:
Are 15 tackles after a play has already gained 5+ yards better than 5 tackles that prevent more plays from occurring?

so we should stop counting tackles if they are past 5 yards... ??? and we should do that for all players right ?? I still don;t see a good concrete post from you on why we would not sign our leading tackler over the last two years and someone that can play all the LB positions and plays special teams and with a team that lacks depth at the LB position.  You act like Rey is terrible and we would be a better team without him but you don;t support it with relative fact or give a sound analysis of why, except he is terrible... show me a link of those that evaluate linebacker performance that states he is terrible.  Here is one that put him as a top 10 outside backer.

http://www.scout.com/nfl/story/1560625-nfl-s-top-5-olbs-in-4-3-scheme 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-16-2016, 10:26 PM)Stormborn Wrote: He's got practically zero value anywhere else (except maybe Minnesota), which should decrease his value, not increase his personal value to us.

It'd be just spending money for the sake of spending money, and then telling the gullible fans that we do indeed spend money in FA.

You could get Danny Trevethan for that cash but nooooooooooooooooooo. **** competent athletic LBs and they're value.

(02-16-2016, 10:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If Trevathan and Rey end up playing for anywhere near the same cash...I might flip. 

(02-16-2016, 10:29 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This team was poised to make a Super Bowl run.
With the cap increase, there is no reason they couldn't keep their good players (MLJ, Pacman, Iloka) and add one or two others (Trevathan) and then go crazy in the draft.

You'd be getting better all across the board, not standing pat with first round exits.

Damn straight.  WTH are these imbeciles thinking?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-18-2016, 03:27 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: so we should stop counting tackles if they are past 5 yards... ??? and we should do that for all players right ??  someone needs to reel you in off the edge of the cliff.

You are completely missing the point.
This is like talking to a child. 

If a guy gets a lot of tackle stats but they occur downfield because he doesn't make a play sooner, is that as valuable as a guy who gets fewer tackle stats but makes tackles that stop drives thus getting fewer chances.

[Au165]

(02-18-2016, 01:55 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There's this big event in April, called the NFL draft....and this thing called free agency.

You make the assumption that anyone can call the defenses.....that is false. Eventually they could, but is that early in the season? Is it late in the season? Is it the following season? The guy making the calls is the QB of the defense they have to read the formation and get the defense set. To minimize the value of the person and the complexity of the job is to not understand the whole idea.

We know someone is going to have to make these calls for at least the first 3 games with Burfict out. With Nelson and Hall possibly gone, you very well could have no one on defense to make those calls early in the season outside of Mauluga. Pay Vinny a fair deal and move on. He is a very good back up and a low end starter, pay him as such.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-18-2016, 03:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: You make the assumption that anyone can call the defenses.....that is false. Eventually they could, but is that early in the season? Is it late in the season? Is it the following season? The guy making the calls is the QB of the defense they have to read the formation and get the defense set. To minimize the value of the person and the complexity of the job is to not understand the whole idea.

We know someone is going to have to make these calls for at least the first 3 games with Burfict out. With Nelson and Hall possibly gone, you very well could have no one on defense to make those calls early in the season outside of Mauluga. Pay Vinny a fair deal and move on. He is a very good back up and a low end starter, pay him as such.

Never made that assumption. Try again.

The way you and others act, this defense is somewhere along the lines of borderline genius intellect needed to make the calls. 
Rey Maualuga couldn't. 
Vontaze Burfict could.

You don't need a genius. You can find guys who can learn in the draft. But hey, if you guys are okay watching our LBs run at a TE or RB from behind because they can't hang in coverage, that's cool too. 
Just stop bitching when TEs and RBs eat us up again

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 03:30 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You are completely missing the point.
This is like talking to a child. 

If a guy gets a lot of tackle stats but they occur downfield because he doesn't make a play sooner, is that as valuable as a guy who gets fewer tackle stats but makes tackles that stop drives thus getting fewer chances.

Just show us that this question applies to Vinny and we will discuss the answer.

All tackles are important because if there is no tackle the play is a td.  So is it better to give up 10 more tds in order to make 5 more stops behind the line of scrimmage?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-18-2016, 03:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just show us that this question applies to Vinny and we will discuss the answer.

All tackles are important because if there is no tackle the play is a td.

Most of his tackles come downfield. 

Your assertion of "no tackle = TD" is just you being your usual dense self. 
It's completely irrelevant to my question. 

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 03:40 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Most of his tackles come downfield. 

Your assertion of "no tackle = TD" is just you being your usual dense self. 
It's completely irrelevant to my question. 

I don't think he had a higher percentage of tackles downfield than any other player in his position.

But even then your question doesn't make any sense.  Five tackles behind the line of scrimmage do not offset giving up 10 long gains.  So i don't really understand your point.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 03:40 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Most of his tackles come downfield. 

Just like 100% of all LBs in the league.


The reason this argument fails with me is that people used to use it here all the time to "prove" that Justin Smith was garbage.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Here's the thing, Danny Trevathan is on the market, and just plain better. If we're not going to get the S and CB situation resolved anytime soon, let's get him. Why are we looking at overpaying a backup with all of these questions looming when there is a HUGE upgrade at said backup's position for a little more coin? That's insane. They should be looking to lock up some of the other questions first, imo. I like Vinny, but not for 5 per when a guy like Trevathan is out there.

[GreenCornBengal]

Tackles are a lame stat.

If you are tackling a lot, its because you are on the field a lot, because you can't stop anyone.

Here are the top 10 tacklers from last season. (notice they all play for bad teams.)

NaVorro Bowman - SF (5-11)
D'Qwell Jackson - IND (8-8)
Lavonte David - TB (6-10)
Reshad Jones - Mia (6-10)
Paul Posluszny - Jax (5-11)
Sean Lee - Dal (4-12)
Telvin Smith - Jax (5-11)
Corey Graham - Buf (8-8)
Malcolm Smith - Oak (7-9)
Daryl Smith - Balt (5-11)

Now I'm not saying these are bad players. Bowman is a stud, obviously. I just think there is some stat bloating when you talk about tackles.

If you look at Vinny Rey's game logs from this season, youll notice many of his tackles were in the early weeks, when the defense was playing noticeably bad. This was when Burfict was not on the field and teams would drop it over the middle (because Vinny Rey is beatable) over and over again.

He averaged 8.75 tackles per game the first 8 weeks of the season but only 3.75 tackles per game the final 8.

I Hope this somewhat illustrates that high tackles are often a bloated stat that is procured from poor defensive play. Sure, there are many players that have high tackle ammounts that are great players. Keuchkly is 13th in the league in tackles... but recall he lead the league in tackles when the team wasn't playing as well....

Dhani Jones led the league in tackles once....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2016, 04:06 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Tackles are a lame stat.

If you are tackling a lot, its because you are on the field a lot, because you can't stop anyone.

Here are the top 10 tacklers from last season. (notice they all play for bad teams.)

NaVorro Bowman - SF (5-11)
D'Qwell Jackson - IND (8-8)
Lavonte David - TB (6-10)
Reshad Jones - Mia (6-10)
Paul Posluszny - Jax (5-11)
Sean Lee - Dal (4-12)
Telvin Smith - Jax (5-11)
Corey Graham - Buf (8-8)
Malcolm Smith - Oak (7-9)
Daryl Smith - Balt (5-11)

Now I'm not saying these are bad players. Bowman is a stud, obviously. I just think there is some stat bloating when you talk about tackles.

If you look at Vinny Rey's game logs from this season, youll notice many of his tackles were in the early weeks, when the defense was playing noticeably bad. This was when Burfict was not on the field and teams would drop it over the middle (because Vinny Rey is beatable) over and over again.

He averaged 8.75 tackles per game the first 8 weeks of the season but only 3.75 tackles per game the final 8.

I Hope this somewhat illustrates that high tackles are often a bloated stat that is procured from poor defensive play. Sure, there are many players that have high tackle ammounts that are great players. Keuchkly is 13th in the league in tackles... but recall he lead the league in tackles when the team wasn't playing as well....

Dhani Jones led the league in tackles once....

Right, this is what Royle was driving at.  Thanks for doing the leg work.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 04:06 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Dhani Jones led the league in tackles once....

So when Burfict lead the league in tackles that meant he was not really good, but just playing for a poor defense?

I agree that high tackle numbers can be deceptive, but at the same time most of the players with a lot of tackles are better than players at the same position that don't get many tackles.  Good players are more likely to shed blaockers and make tackles than bad players.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2016, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So when Burfict lead the league in tackles that meant he was not really good, but just playing for a poor defense?

I agree that high tackle numbers can be deceptive, but at the same time most of the players with a lot of tackles are better than players at the same position that don't get many tackles.  Good players are more likely to shed blaockers and make tackles than bad players.

TFL would definitely be interesting to see......I think we can all agree that Burfict flying all over the field is better than VRey, and I've been a VRey supporter when others bashed him.  

[OrlandoBengal]

(02-18-2016, 04:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: TFL would definitely be interesting to see......I think we can all agree that Burfict flying all over the field is better than VRey, and I've been a VRey supporter when others bashed him.  

I think what most people are saying, yourself included, is not that he is trash, but he's also not worth $5 million per year.  

Funny thing... there was a FB link to one of the Bengals' pages about this subject.  I was amazed with the "we can't just bring someone from the oustide, they won't know our system" posts.  Then some people on this thread bring up "who would call the defense while Burfict is out"?  It's football people... I sincerely doubt the Bengals defensive system is that far out of the norm, that far beyond anything that a new guy has played in, that it would be impossible for him to pick it up.  People change teams all the time... it's not like you're asking someone to go perform surgery.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-18-2016, 04:56 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I think what most people are saying, yourself included, is not that he is trash, but he's also not worth $5 million per year.  

Funny thing... there was a FB link to one of the Bengals' pages about this subject.  I was amazed with the "we can't just bring someone from the oustide, they won't know our system" posts.  Then some people on this thread bring up "who would call the defense while Burfict is out"?  It's football people... I sincerely doubt the Bengals defensive system is that far out of the norm, that far beyond anything that a new guy has played in, that it would be impossible for him to pick it up.  People change teams all the time... it's not like you're asking someone to go perform surgery.

tell that one to Chad Johnson.. could not learn the NE system is what was heard around the league.  Understanding a system is very important and it does not happen always over nite.  I think most teams like to retain players that add value to their team in house.. Rey does that and the Bengals would be correct to retain him... for a fair market price.  The problem is some on here act like he is Terrible and we should pay him nothing.. that is the problem.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-18-2016, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think he had a higher percentage of tackles downfield than any other player in his position.

But even then your question doesn't make any sense.  Five tackles behind the line of scrimmage do not offset giving up 10 long gains.  So i don't really understand your point.

Again typical fred, trying to be smarter than everyone and ends up looking worse for the most part. 

Never said behind the LOS.
Just said not after 5+ yard gains, you know, setting up long 2nd and 3rd downs or stopping offenses on third downs. 

Which do you value more, the guy who ends a play in 3 downs or the guy who makes 5 tackles on a drive but they move the ball more? 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-18-2016, 06:09 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: tell that one to Chad Johnson.. could not learn the NE system is what was heard around the league.  Understanding a system is very important and it does not happen always over nite.  I think most teams like to retain players that add value to their team in house.. Rey does that and the Bengals would be correct to retain him... for a fair market price.  The problem is some on here act like he is Terrible and we should pay him nothing.. that is the problem.

Good thing they'd have 6 months to figure it out and not overnight.