California home of freebies for illegal immigrants

[The D.O.Z.]

I feel like illegal immigration is always going to be an issue. What we CAN do to help stem it from the Mexican border is maybe send our military over there to wipe out the cartels and those in power who protect them. Make an example out of them too, so the "next wave" thinks twice before going into business for themselves. We give all this money and military help to Ukraine and Israel when we should be focusing much closer to home. Wipe out the cartels, give Mexico it's country back, stemming illegal immigration and fentanyl overdoses in the U.S.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-06-2024, 11:25 AM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I feel like illegal immigration is always going to be an issue. What we CAN do to help stem it from the Mexican border is maybe send our military over there to wipe out the cartels and those in power who protect them. Make an example out of them too, so the "next wave" thinks twice before going into business for themselves. We give all this money and military help to Ukraine and Israel when we should be focusing much closer to home. Wipe out the cartels, give Mexico it's country back, stemming illegal immigration and fentanyl overdoses in the U.S.

I think that the correct answer should be for Mexico to deploy it's own military to wiping out the cartels.  However, have you ever wondered why they tolerate the cartels?  Likely because they line the pockets of all of the important people in the Mexican government, law enforcement and military, similar to the way corporations do in the US.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2024, 12:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that the correct answer should be for Mexico to deploy it's own military to wiping out the cartels.  However, have you ever wondered why they tolerate the cartels?  Likely because they line the pockets of all of the important people in the Mexican government, law enforcement and military, similar to the way corporations do in the US.

Dude, it's far worse than you think.  I get the DEA weekly brief and the intercepted conversations we hear show how deep the corruption goes.  It's sad too, because Mexico is such a cool country, and on its face they have a robust economy.  By all accounts they should be a well developed nation and a player on the world stage.  But the corruption issue really prohibits them from doing anything of substance.

[KillerGoose]

(02-06-2024, 12:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that the correct answer should be for Mexico to deploy it's own military to wiping out the cartels.  However, have you ever wondered why they tolerate the cartels?  Likely because they line the pockets of all of the important people in the Mexican government, law enforcement and military, similar to the way corporations do in the US.

Mexico has deployed their military. The Mexican Naval Infantry Corps (i.e. Marines) fight the cartels throughout the country. They are one of the few branches that haven't been widely corrupted. However, fighting them at a level like this simply won't work, even if the United States becomes involved. It is a failing plan from the beginning. These organizations have massive reserves that range from the citizens in abject poverty to those who glorify what they do. Millions of people. You can find numerous articles detailing firefights between the marines and cartel members that often end in a decisive victory for the Mexican military but it makes no difference. You kill 10, 20 more arrive. It is similar to Vietnam in this sense; you could go through the entire conflict and win every single engagement but still lose the war. 

The only way to defeat the cartels or significantly decrease their power would be to remove their main source of revenue, which is drugs. If the United States legalized the sale of hard drugs, cartel finances would be devastated. I think we all know that the chances of that happening are zero.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-06-2024, 12:50 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Mexico has deployed their military. The Mexican Naval Infantry Corps (i.e. Marines) fight the cartels throughout the country. They are one of the few branches that haven't been widely corrupted. However, fighting them at a level like this simply won't work, even if the United States becomes involved. It is a failing plan from the beginning. These organizations have massive reserves that range from the citizens in abject poverty to those who glorify what they do. Millions of people. You can find numerous articles detailing firefights between the marines and cartel members that often end in a decisive victory for the Mexican military but it makes no difference. You kill 10, 20 more arrive. It is similar to Vietnam in this sense; you could go through the entire conflict and win every single engagement but still lose the war. 

The only way to defeat the cartels or significantly decrease their power would be to remove their main source of revenue, which is drugs. If the United States legalized the sale of hard drugs, cartel finances would be devastated. I think we all know that the chances of that happening are zero.

I get what you're saying, I really do. Pretty much all of Central America and Northern South America's chief source of revenue comes from cocoa production.  I recently read an in-depth article that focused on the plight of the poor cocoa farmers who are suffering as the cocaine markets have plummeted in favor of the opioid markets.  The problem with what you're suggesting in the bolded is that literally, entire Countries and Regions are dependent upon that revenue.  It seems like the only way to successfully cut off the drug supply, would be to show the producers another way to make a better living.  That, and well, dry up the demand for those products.  But we all have seen how successful that endeavor has been over the course of my lifetime.. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2024, 12:50 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Mexico has deployed their military. The Mexican Naval Infantry Corps (i.e. Marines) fight the cartels throughout the country. They are one of the few branches that haven't been widely corrupted. However, fighting them at a level like this simply won't work, even if the United States becomes involved. It is a failing plan from the beginning. These organizations have massive reserves that range from the citizens in abject poverty to those who glorify what they do. Millions of people. You can find numerous articles detailing firefights between the marines and cartel members that often end in a decisive victory for the Mexican military but it makes no difference. You kill 10, 20 more arrive. It is similar to Vietnam in this sense; you could go through the entire conflict and win every single engagement but still lose the war. 

The only way to defeat the cartels or significantly decrease their power would be to remove their main source of revenue, which is drugs. If the United States legalized the sale of hard drugs, cartel finances would be devastated. I think we all know that the chances of that happening are zero.

You're not wrong that drug money fuels the corruption in Mexico.  Where you are wrong is how to fix that.  Check out the absolute shit show that is Oregon after it decriminalized hard drug use.

https://apnews.com/article/oregon-drugs-decriminalization-pushback-bb209e6ba9835c69f95b093c8ee00279

Oregon’s first-in-the-nation law that decriminalized the possession of small amounts of heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs in favor of an emphasis on addiction treatment is facing strong headwinds in the progressive state after an explosion of public drug use fueled by the proliferation of fentanyl and a surge in deaths from opioids, including those of children.



“The inability for people to live their day-to-day life without encountering open-air drug use is so pressing on urban folks’ minds,” said John Horvick, vice president of polling firm DHM Research. “That has very much changed people’s perspective about what they think Measure 110 is.”

I'm not saying legalization of some drugs could work, but legalizing all "hard drugs" is a terrible idea.  Heroin and Meth should never be legal due to their extreme addition rate and the damage they cause.

[KillerGoose]

(02-06-2024, 01:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not wrong that drug money fuels the corruption in Mexico.  Where you are wrong is how to fix that.  Check out the absolute shit show that is Oregon after it decriminalized hard drug use.

https://apnews.com/article/oregon-drugs-decriminalization-pushback-bb209e6ba9835c69f95b093c8ee00279

Oregon’s first-in-the-nation law that decriminalized the possession of small amounts of heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs in favor of an emphasis on addiction treatment is facing strong headwinds in the progressive state after an explosion of public drug use fueled by the proliferation of fentanyl and a surge in deaths from opioids, including those of children.



“The inability for people to live their day-to-day life without encountering open-air drug use is so pressing on urban folks’ minds,” said John Horvick, vice president of polling firm DHM Research. “That has very much changed people’s perspective about what they think Measure 110 is.”

I'm not saying legalization of some drugs could work, but legalizing all "hard drugs" is a terrible idea.  Heroin and Meth should never be legal due to their extreme addition rate and the damage they cause.

Oh let me clarify, I am not advocating for it to happen. I think that is an issue in and of itself. I'm saying that I believe the only way to actually de-fang the cartels would be something that drastic. They are too large and powerful at this point for anything else to work unless I have overlooked something over the years. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2024, 01:49 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Oh let me clarify, I am not advocating for it to happen. I think that is an issue in and of itself. I'm saying that I believe the only way to actually de-fang the cartels would be something that drastic. They are too large and powerful at this point for anything else to work unless I have overlooked something over the years. 

Legalizing marijuana would be a major step.  The cartels make much more money from marijuana sales than you would think.  It's a huge chunk of their income.  Legalizing it nationwide, and not taxing it to death like CA did, would go a long way towards accomplishing your goal.

[Mickeypoo]

(02-06-2024, 02:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Legalizing marijuana would be a major step.  The cartels make much more money from marijuana sales than you would think.  It's a huge chunk of their income.  Legalizing it nationwide, and not taxing it to death like CA did, would go a long way towards accomplishing your goal.

It's unconscionable that weed is still listed as schedule 1 while alcohol is not a controlled substance and fentanyl, meth, coke among others are schedule 2.  Let that sink in.  lol.  I know you understand this based on your job.  Absolute insanity.

In my personal experience, alcohol is WAY worse than weed and drunks are just the worst, whereas stoners are completely tolerable and half the time you wouldn't even know if someone was stoned depending how seasoned they are.

I have friends that could smoke a whole bowl or even a big joint and you would never have a clue they were stoned.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2024, 03:46 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: It's unconscionable that weed is still listed as schedule 1 while alcohol is not a controlled substance and fentanyl, meth, coke among others are schedule 2.  Let that sink in.  lol.  I know you understand this based on your job.  Absolute insanity.

In my personal experience, alcohol is WAY worse than weed and drunks are just the worst, whereas stoners are completely tolerable and half the time you wouldn't even know if someone was stoned depending how seasoned they are.

I have friends that could smoke a whole bowl or even a big joint and you would never have a clue they were stoned.

I've mentioned several times that I used to work at the Coachella music festival and Stage Coach festival every year.  This happened from about 2003 until 2015 when I was promoted and just couldn't take that amount of time off anymore.  Coachella is easy to work, the kids are all either smoked out or high on ecstasy.  They aren't violent and the only real issue during those weekends is rampant thievery (those kids loved to steal).  Stage Coach was an absolute pain in the ass.  It's a country music festival if you're not aware, and everyone is an obnoxious drunk asshole.  well, not everyone, but you get the point.  They constantly want to fight you, even if you're interacting with them over something minor.

So yes, it is absurd marijuana is not legal everywhere, especially federally.  

[StoneTheCrow]

(02-06-2024, 05:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've mentioned several times that I used to work at the Coachella music festival and Stage Coach festival every year.  This happened from about 2003 until 2015 when I was promoted and just couldn't take that amount of time off anymore.  Coachella is easy to work, the kids are all either smoked out or high on ecstasy.  They aren't violent and the only real issue during those weekends is rampant thievery (those kids loved to steal).  Stage Coach was an absolute pain in the ass.  It's a country music festival if you're not aware, and everyone is an obnoxious drunk asshole.  well, not everyone, but you get the point.  They constantly want to fight you, even if you're interacting with them over something minor.

So yes, it is absurd marijuana is not legal everywhere, especially federally.  

My only, and incredibly minor gripe is that people in public who previously hot boxed in their cars smell like hell.

[Belsnickel]

(02-06-2024, 05:22 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: My only, and incredibly minor gripe is that people in public who previously hot boxed in their cars smell like hell.

I mean, honestly, no worse than cigarette smokers. I smell a smoker, now, and I'm like "man, I can't believe I used to smell like that all the time."

[Dill]

(02-05-2024, 04:22 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I thought this sounded familiar. The whole "CA expanding free healthcare regardless of immigration status" is just a rehash of the same thread from a couple months ago. 

"Wah, CA is expanding Medi-Cal to people regardless of immigration status!"
"How about they expand Medi-Cal to everyone then?"
"Wah, that's sociacommu-something-ism"

Yeah, it perks my interest when the issue gets paired with foreign policy spending.

"We are sending money to Ukraine instead of Palestine, Ohio!" Or Hawaii after a volcano eruption.

Like there is an either/or choice and some Dem bureaucrat is denying good Americans a little
help while handing damned foreigners and immigrants oodles of billions to be nice.

We have money for both, but one party and its ideology make spending on Americans difficult.

[Dill]

(02-05-2024, 06:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The GOP certainly goes too far on this issue.  The problem is, so do the Dems.  I think a robust, as you put it, safety net for people in genuine need, and wanting to better their situation, is something the vast majority of citizens would get behind.  But please explain how providing free health care to illegal aliens and not actual citizens makes any kind of sense in this regard?  Not only does it incentivize illegal activity (a Dem staple at this point), it's a slap in the face to actual citizens and legal, non-citizen, residents.  Which is why you haven't seen anyone try and actually address this, instead falling back on the usual talking points.

I think a lot of us are in the dark about the policy nuts and bolts of this issue.

What sort of free care do the aliens get that Americans are denied?

Does this vary by state?

Can you point us to specific policies and examples?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-06-2024, 01:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It seems like the only way to successfully cut off the drug supply, would be to show the producers another way to make a better living.  That, and well, dry up the demand for those products.  But we all have seen how successful that endeavor has been over the course of my lifetime.. 

We spent absurd amounts of money over literal decades paying Afghani farmers to grow food instead of poppies. They're right back to growing poppies. Without heavy subsidies, growing food with never pay as much as drugs.

We've also gotten to the point that countries (China, Iran) are using exporting drugs as a form of warfare. Flooding our streets with fentanyl and heroin is more cost effective for them in hurting us than pretty much anything else they could do, and still lets them keep the ability to at least pretend to be innocent rather than it being an outright and undeniable direct attack on us. Even if it ends up killing more people and destroying more communities than a bomb or missile ever could.

(02-06-2024, 01:49 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm saying that I believe the only way to actually de-fang the cartels would be something that drastic. They are too large and powerful at this point for anything else to work unless I have overlooked something over the years. 

The only real way for Mexico to defeat the cartels (without us helping them in a fully fledged no-holds-barred war of eradication) would involve a lot of questionable steps that bring a lot of worldwide condemnation.

El Salvador had one of the highest murder rates in the world due to gangs at 53 per 100,000. Gangs basically ruled areas killing and kidnapping people, openly extorting people and businesses. 2 years after basically suspending a lot of their rights and turning into a "temporary" de facto military dictatorship they're down to 2.4 per 100,000. They also made a gigantic super-jail specifically for gang members and now have the highest % of their population in jail in the world.

https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2024/02/06/1226991801/el-salvador-state-of-exception

It's nothing I would ever want in the US, but it also seems to have worked for them and I guess if the alternative is you can't walk out of your house from fear of gang violence it could seem a tempting option. I have a sneaking suspicion that the measures will become permanent  and they'll slide away from democracy.

They just re-elected their president who did all this in a landslide. He's apparently very popular. He was at 83% of the vote with 70% of the vote counted, and it's not being called a Putin-83%, but an actual 83%.

Now Ecuador looks like they might be doing something similar and there's some 13 Latin American countries who have a majority of the populace open to non-Democratic government if it means cleaning up gangs and cartels...
https://www.latinobarometro.org/lat.jsp


Sadly it seems like once your problem gets past a certain level, reasonable and easily palatable solutions aren't really enough anymore. Would love for a country somewhere in the world to prove that belief wrong by solving it while still respecting rights, working within the previously outlined laws, and maintaining a strong Democracy. Just not sure how you do that when they keep corrupting government and military officials and the ones they can't corrupt they kill. Sept '20 to May '21 88 politicians either holding or running for office were killed in Mexico. That's not a reasonable solution type problem.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2024, 09:54 PM)Dill Wrote:
I think a lot of us are in the dark about the policy nuts and bolts of this issue.

Are we?  It seems rather straight forward.

Quote:What sort of free care do the aliens get that Americans are denied?

They get the same access to Medi-Cal that some Californians get.  I don't get free health care, my work has to pay for it, as do I.  Last I checked I'm an American citizen.  I am denied free health care.  Illegal immigrants are not.

Quote:Does this vary by state?

No idea.  Seeing as I don't pay state taxes in any other state I can safely say that's immaterial to me.

Quote:Can you point us to specific policies and examples?

Do you mean other than providing free health care to people who are in the country illegally?

[Mickeypoo]

(02-06-2024, 06:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, honestly, no worse than cigarette smokers. I smell a smoker, now, and I'm like "man, I can't believe I used to smell like that all the time."

It could have been me typing this.  That's exactly me.  lol.

[StoneTheCrow]

(02-07-2024, 09:55 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: It could have been me typing this.  That's exactly me.  lol.

Yep.

Not to get too far off the trail but I remember people being outraged when they banned smoking inside bars and restaurants in Ohio. I can’t believe we used to sit and eat amongst the clouds.

My first job at 15 was washing dishes at a higher end restaurant and a couple times a week we’d have to run the ash trays from the tables through.

[GMDino]

(02-07-2024, 10:03 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Yep.

Not to get too far off the trail but I remember people being outraged when they banned smoking inside bars and restaurants in Ohio. I can’t believe we used to sit and eat amongst the clouds.

I remember when I came back from college for the first time and couldn't figure out why the house smelled.  It was the first time I wasn't around cigarettes for an extended period of time.

Luckily my parents and grandmother quit not long after.

It also reminds of how people reacted to seatbelt laws.

[Mickeypoo]

(02-07-2024, 10:03 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Yep.

Not to get too far off the trail but I remember people being outraged when they banned smoking inside bars and restaurants in Ohio. I can’t believe we used to sit and eat amongst the clouds.

Yup, same here in NY.  I was one of the "annoyed" lol, as I was still slugging down the beers and smoking like a chimney.

In hindsight, I am very thankful they did that.