Columbia Leaders Grilled at Antisemitism Hearing

[Belsnickel]

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: There are both pro-hamas/jihad and pro-Palestine protestors tho. And I hate to use looks of someone in a discussion, but the look of many of these protestors it's hard to tell which. But I do think many if not almost all the pro-jihad/hamas ones are not college students, at least I hope to God they aren't.

Most of the protesters just want an end to the violence. Let's be clear, Millennials and younger in this country have lived most, if not all of their lives where they have born witness to conflict in the middle east with the US involved and seeing the devastating effects on not just the innocents in the region, but our friends and family. I was having a discussion with an Army MI officer I know who was an officer in the battlefield planning during the invasion of Iraq. We had a discussion about age and I put it into context for him, telling him that the young PFCs and SPCs that he was making those plans for were my classmates.

The 40 and younger crowd in this country is just absolutely exhausted when it comes to war.

[Millhouse]

(8 hours ago)jmccracky Wrote: I don't disagree with a lot here. I guess I'm just seeing a lot of the anti Jew rhetoric and several examples enough to concern me. Not just a t shirt or two. I hope you're right and it's just a real minority. But according to the lefties at work and my friends (I'm pretty far left), it's creeping into their psyche. They say "we love everyone!", then say the Jews are bad lol. Then say not all Jews when I give em a look. It's the same as when a racist dude says "not all blacks are bad" when trying to explain that they ain't THAT racist. Lol 

Thanks for the discussion. I hope I'm wrong. 

One thing that is fascinating is how many on the left, particularly the far left seem to support Islam over Christianity and Judaism, which is just baffling to me when one looks over the world landscape of the countries dominated by those religions. Anyways though I am sure we may disagree on a few things, I will always be against all antisemites out there in the world, regardless if they are far left or far right. 

[Millhouse]

(8 hours ago)Belsnickel Wrote: Most of the protesters just want an end to the violence. Let's be clear, Millennials and younger in this country have lived most, if not all of their lives where they have born witness to conflict in the middle east with the US involved and seeing the devastating effects on not just the innocents in the region, but our friends and family. I was having a discussion with an Army MI officer I know who was an officer in the battlefield planning during the invasion of Iraq. We had a discussion about age and I put it into context for him, telling him that the young PFCs and SPCs that he was making those plans for were my classmates.

The 40 and younger crowd in this country is just absolutely exhausted when it comes to war.

I want the violence to end too. One thing to note with the younger generations, like college kids and younger, they weren't around when 9-11 occurred. And Jihadist groups such as Hamas who wants Israel and the U.S. destroyed, aren't probably perceived the same way as many of the rest of us who have deeper feelings towards those kind of groups, per say.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(8 hours ago)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is the inherent problem of any ethnic state and protesting the actions of it. When it comes to typical activist actions there isn't much room to parse out the nuances between the country, the government, and the people. In addition, the role of the Jewish people as antagonists in western society is so deep rooted that it is not surprising at all to me when people start leaning towards that in these scenarios. This is something that has been a part of the psyche of our culture for centuries at this point and it really isn't going to take much to play on that. Obviously, this is both concerning and problematic but it is something that we need to come to terms with before we can ever move past it.

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: There are both pro-hamas/jihad and pro-Palestine protestors tho. And I hate to use looks of someone in a discussion, but the look of many of these protestors it's hard to tell which. But I do think many if not almost all the pro-jihad/hamas ones are not college students, at least I hope to God they aren't.

You're both creeping up on the real problem here, and it's something I've pointed out earlier in this thread and it was run away from.  I do not think most of the protestors are bigots.  I do not think most of the protestors are pro-Hamas.  I do think most of the protestors aren't very informed about what they're protesting, but that's not the point I'm going to make.  The problem is that a not insignificant percentage of them are bigots and are pro-Hamas.  What's the percentage?  Based on what I've seen and heard I'd say it's probably about 20-30%.  That's not an insignificant number.  And that percentage is not repudiated and shunned by the rest, they wouldn't dare.  Take the Columbia student who outright called for the murder of anyone who opposed his beliefs, he got a meeting with Omar and a hug from her daughter days later.

There is a rot at the heart of these protests, and it is spreading.  The longer these campuses ***** out on dealing with these encampments the more bold they will grow and the likelihood this spreads into summer (just like 2020) grows.  These school are in clear violation of federal law that requires they provide a safe learning environment free of intimidation and bigotry.

Until the left leaning posters here actually acknowledge that there are a sizeable number of not very good people involved in these protests they're going to continue to look bad and, at the very least tacitly condone their antisemitisim. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: One thing that is fascinating is how many on the left, particularly the far left seem to support Islam over Christianity and Judaism, which is just baffling to me when one looks over the world landscape of the countries dominated by those religions. Anyways though I am sure we may disagree on a few things, I will always be against all antisemites out there in the world, regardless if they are far left or far right. 

On it's face I agree, it makes very little sense.  Islam, as it is practiced in most of the world, is a very regressive and authoritarian ideology.  But when you look at it through the lens these kids use, which is who is powerful and who is not, Islam is a victim.  What countries are the most powerful?  Western nations are largely Christian, especially historically, and the most powerful.  These kids view everything as either powerful or not powerful, extrapolated further in oppressor versus oppressed.  So to them, Islam is an oppressed ideology by the racist and more powerful western nations.  Not coincidentally the western nations the vast majority of these kids grew up in.  When kids go through their rebellious phase they rebel against the status quo, what they grew up immersed in, and are ultimately "oppressed" by.  Add it a small smattering of education on western intervention in the region and you get what you see today.

This is why you get the apparent cognitive dissonance of advocating for communism, an ideology that has murdered millions, considerably more than any other on Earth.  That's why they can wear a Che Guevara shirt, while ignoring that he was a bigoted, homophobic murderer.  And that's why they can praise Islam despite it being openly misogynistic in just about everywhere it predominates.  Despite it being openly and vehemently homophobic in the exact same fashion.  It's not about ideological consistency, it's about oppressed versus oppressor, and to these kids the "oppressed" are always right, always virtuous and always victimized. And that's why they view Israel as the bad guy/oppressor, and even a vile terrorist organization like Hamas as a victim/oppressed.

[GMDino]

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: One thing that is fascinating is how many on the left, particularly the far left seem to support Islam over Christianity and Judaism, which is just baffling to me when one looks over the world landscape of the countries dominated by those religions. Anyways though I am sure we may disagree on a few things, I will always be against all antisemites out there in the world, regardless if they are far left or far right. 

Currently I am moving more and more to anti all religions....lol.

I criticize Christianity more because a) that is the one I am/was a part of and I see need for change and b) it is the religion most cite when they want to "fix" this country that I live in.

[Dill]

(Today, 12:09 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You continually trying to equate these pro-Hamas protests to the civil rights or anti-apartheid movement reeks of desperation.  A slight difference, neither of those protests favored the side of admitted pro-genocide, gang rapist, murdering kidnappers of infants and the elderly.  

This is like saying the civil rights protests were "pro-Communist" protests,
as people did at the time.  There are plenty of Israeli politicians who are "pro-genocide,"
but I've so far resisted claiming that make pro-Israel protestors pro-genocide.
Why the rush to misrepresent? Why do ONLY Hams crimes count? 

Calling anti-war protests "pro-Hamas" is what reeks of desperation. 
Exhibit A is your photographic "proof" with posters protesting the war and illegal occupation.
No mention of Hamas was enough to convince you--"Hamas"! That followed by a clinic in
faulty argument, misreading, and false equivalence.

No matter how hard you, Hannity and Trump try, you can't MAKE protests pro-Hamas by
just calling them that. No one seriously trying to understand and resolve the conflict would be trying.

(Today, 12:09 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You want to even move in that direction then you've got to eliminate Hamas from the equation.  Which means eliminating Iran from the equation.  Which means eliminating Islamic extremism from the equation.  In other words, you got a long hard road ahead before this even begins to be a discussion.

Lol, this is like arguing that the only way to stop mass civil rights protests in the '60s was to eliminate Moscow from the equation.
In fact, eliminating segregation turned out to be a good first step. 

And ending Apartheid ended violent resistance to Apartheid.

But in your entire cascade of hyperbolic non-sequiturs, no mention of the occupation which created Hamas.

You've embraced the intentionally limited geopolitical vision of the Israeli hard right, which began eliminating peace options back in the '90s
and will prevent them going forward.

[Dill]

(9 hours ago)jmccracky Wrote: I've been seeing protesters wearing t shirts that say "Jews cease fire". That's a problem. I even saw it on CNN the other day. Why are we (us liberals) not calling that out? Look....if it said "Israel cease fire", I wouldn't have a problem with that. But calling out Jews for a cease fire is anti Semitic. And it's getting worse and scary for those, like my wife, who are Jewish. 

You are seeing it only as being pro Palestinian people, which could be what a lot of protesters are there for. Protests can be a good thing, but anti Semitic rhetoric has no place. I'm sure you'd have a problem with protesters on the right with t shirts saying "blacks stop committing crimes" amongst the crowds. It's disgusting. But our side isn't as bad is what my fellow left friends say when I bring it up. I hate that way of thinking. 

Not trying to argue. Just trying to make you see what I see if you ain't seeing it. 

Agree with you on that, Cracky.  "Jews cease fire" is anti-semitic. 

Stupid to say things like that, and it destroys the anti-war message.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(7 hours ago)GMDino Wrote: Currently I am moving more and more to anti all religions....lol.

I'm not far off. I am of the opinion that religion was pretty important at a certain point in history to help a larger scale society form around agreed-upon beliefs and ethics, but it has probably outlasted that usefulness and now we can likely do without religion as a society now.

[Dill]

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: One thing that is fascinating is how many on the left, particularly the far left seem to support Islam over Christianity and Judaism, which is just baffling to me when one looks over the world landscape of the countries dominated by those religions. Anyways though I am sure we may disagree on a few things, I will always be against all antisemites out there in the world, regardless if they are far left or far right. 

I don't think "the left" supports Islam over Christianity. Not sure whom you are referring to, but I think the confusion would be cleared up if you recognized "the left" generally protests human rights violations. That's what the current protests are about, same as previous ones against segregation in the US and Apartheid in South Africa. The fact that most of the five million people held under military occupation by Israel are Muslim is NOT what is motivating protests against the occupation.  Thousands of Palestinians are Christian too. It is the ongoing ethnic cleansing that upsets protestors.

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: I want the violence to end too. One thing to note with the younger generations, like college kids and younger, they weren't around when 9-11 occurred. And Jihadist groups such as Hamas who wants Israel and the U.S. destroyed, aren't probably perceived the same way as many of the rest of us who have deeper feelings towards those kind of groups, per say.

I was around when 9/11 occurred. I remember how Fox whipped up Islamophobia and  Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld used that fear and anger to start an unnecessary war in Iraq, in which over 200,000 Muslims died. The Fox machine is working overtime now to intensify that Islamophobia to push US foreign policy in whatever direction Netanyahu wants. Hence the "pro-Hams protestors" tag.

Americans in general don't know a lot about the Middle East and US politics, a lot less than the British public, for example (I blame our press), so I think that makes them more reliant on stereotypes to interpret conflicts there.  Hamas hates Israel for driving Palestinians off their land and boxing them in Gaza like an open air prison, and they hate the US for its massive support of that project. The conflict between college protestors now and majority opinion in the US may be because many of those students know more about the occupation than their parents, just as in the '60s students tended to know more about the causes of the Vietnam War than their parents, who assumed it was all directed from Moscow. 

[Belsnickel]

(8 hours ago)Millhouse Wrote: I want the violence to end too. One thing to note with the younger generations, like college kids and younger, they weren't around when 9-11 occurred. And Jihadist groups such as Hamas who wants Israel and the U.S. destroyed, aren't probably perceived the same way as many of the rest of us who have deeper feelings towards those kind of groups, per say.

I had a conversation with a world religions professor about this, once. I was helping her with some research and she was teaching one of those 101 type classes. We had this sudden realization that the students she was teaching had no pre-9/11 reference point for Islam and how that would color their view of the religion. That was Gen Z. As we move into the latter years of Gen and into Gen Alpha, they will be further removed from those events and will see the people in the ME more as victims than Millennials and older Gen Z people do.

Of course, as with any generational discussion this is all generalities and not really well defined. In addition, I am not putting any amount of judgement on any of the viewpoints, only that there is going to be a differentiation based on the timeline of events. So no one come at me with your bullshit. All of this is admittedly "squishy" when it comes to the science of it.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(8 hours ago)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're both creeping up on the real problem here, and it's something I've pointed out earlier in this thread and it was run away from.  I do not think most of the protestors are bigots.  I do not think most of the protestors are pro-Hamas.  I do think most of the protestors aren't very informed about what they're protesting, but that's not the point I'm going to make.  The problem is that a not insignificant percentage of them are bigots and are pro-Hamas.  What's the percentage?  Based on what I've seen and heard I'd say it's probably about 20-30%.  That's not an insignificant number.  And that percentage is not repudiated and shunned by the rest, they wouldn't dare.  Take the Columbia student who outright called for the murder of anyone who opposed his beliefs, he got a meeting with Omar and a hug from her daughter days later.

There is a rot at the heart of these protests, and it is spreading.  The longer these campuses ***** out on dealing with these encampments the more bold they will grow and the likelihood this spreads into summer (just like 2020) grows.  These school are in clear violation of federal law that requires they provide a safe learning environment free of intimidation and bigotry.

Until the left leaning posters here actually acknowledge that there are a sizeable number of not very good people involved in these protests they're going to continue to look bad and, at the very least tacitly condone their antisemitisim. 

I remember not too long ago when the corrupt/bad leadership of a organization promoting a different amendment was enough for a state's Attoney General to try to get that entire organization dissolved. Wasn't a good move then, isn't a good move now.

Keep identifying and removing the people responsible for actual antisemitism and people who are actually preaching violence, but otherwise I think we just need to accept that allowing protests and demonstrations in public spaces are vital and necessary even if you don't agree with them. Once we start deciding what subjects we do and don't allow free speech and assembly on under the guise of needing safe environments you've already begun to lose it.

I could see limiting the protests to those who are actually students at that campus. You could probably make a case that it isn't a public space for those who aren't enrolled there. I just think even if they aren't well informed or even well intentioned, so long as they don't break the barrier of free speech, you just need to let them continue so long as they're in those public spaces and not in classrooms or offices and the like.

[Belsnickel]

(4 hours ago)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I remember not too long ago when the corrupt/bad leadership of a organization promoting a different amendment was enough for a state's Attoney General to try to get that entire organization dissolved. Wasn't a good move then, isn't a good move now.

Keep identifying and removing the people responsible for actual antisemitism and people who are actually preaching violence, but otherwise I think we just need to accept that allowing protests and demonstrations in public spaces are vital and necessary even if you don't agree with them. Once we start deciding what subjects we do and don't allow free speech and assembly on under the guise of needing safe environments you've already begun to lose it.

I could see limiting the protests to those who are actually students at that campus. You could probably make a case that it isn't a public space for those who aren't enrolled there. I just think even if they aren't well informed or even well intentioned, so long as they don't break the barrier of free speech, you just need to let them continue so long as they're in those public spaces and not in classrooms or offices and the like.

I agree to an extent. There is a mandate from the government that universities must provide a safe learning environment. As much as I am for free speech, there are lines to be drawn when it comes to public safety. Now, this exists in regards to public institutions. Private institutions, like Columbia, still have the federal mandate as they accept Title IV funding, but they are not a government agency and therefore are not capable of violating free speech in the same manner a public institution is.

The problem here is that there is a fine line to be walked, and university administrators just want to salsa.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(5 hours ago)Dill Wrote: This is like saying the civil rights protests were "pro-Communist" protests,
as people did at the time.

No, it's not.

Quote:  There are plenty of Israeli politicians who are "pro-genocide,"
but I've so far resisted claiming that make pro-Israel protestors pro-genocide.

No, there aren't

Quote:Why the rush to misrepresent? Why do ONLY Hams crimes count? 

Because, your continued false equivalency (which you routinely deny and then engage heavily in) aside there is no comparison.  Hamas is a terrorist organization that exists to kill Jews and destroy Israel.  Even you and your specious arguments cannot make a direct comparison.

Quote:Calling anti-war protests "pro-Hamas" is what reeks of desperation. 
Exhibit A is your photographic "proof" with posters protesting the war and illegal occupation.
No mention of Hamas was enough to convince you--"Hamas"! That followed by a clinic in
faulty argument, misreading, and false equivalence.

Advocating for freeing convicted terrorist murderers is either ignorant that they exist or knowing they exist and not caring.  So you're either ignorant or pro-terrorist.  As for the protests being pro-Hamas, I provided you with examples of them saying exactly that.

Quote:No matter how hard you, Hannity and Trump try, you can't MAKE protests pro-Hamas by
just calling them that. No one seriously trying to understand and resolve the conflict would be trying.

No matter how hard you, Linda Sarsour and Louis Farrakhan try, we're not going to ignore the blatant antisemitism of these protests.

Quote:Lol, this is like arguing that the only way to stop mass civil rights protests in the '60s was to eliminate Moscow from the equation.
In fact, eliminating segregation turned out to be a good first step. 

I had no idea MLK was a Soviet.  I also had zero idea that equal rights for everyone was ever a value of a communist autocracy.  You've revealed some fascinating alternative facts here.

Quote:And ending Apartheid ended violent resistance to Apartheid.

Yes, it's very peaceful there now.  Sorry though, another false equivalency from you.  

Quote:But in your entire cascade of hyperbolic non-sequiturs, no mention of the occupation which created Hamas.

You start a war to try and kill your enemy and lose you're going to lose some things.  You do it multiple times you're going to lose more.  Sorry, I have zero sympathy for the losers of the instigators of multiple wars attempting genocide on Israel.  Oh, maybe you think they're the good guys because they Soviets were on their side?  That would slot nicely with your inane USSR and MLK analogy.

Quote:You've embraced the intentionally limited geopolitical vision of the Israeli hard right, which began eliminating peace options back in the '90s
and will prevent them going forward.

I've embraced the truth that Hamas are garbage and anyone who supports them is garbage.  I honestly have as much sympathy for Gazans who despise Hamas as I do for the Germans who despised the Nazis.  At the end of the day you're going to pay for the actions of your governing body.  Excuse the reasons for supporting Hamas all you want, at the end of the day it's still support for genocidal rapists, murderers and kidnappers of infants that subsequently are murdered.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(4 hours ago)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I remember not too long ago when the corrupt/bad leadership of a organization promoting a different amendment was enough for a state's Attoney General to try to get that entire organization dissolved. Wasn't a good move then, isn't a good move now.

I agree, but you're not going to find me advocating for the arrest of the ACLU or any protestor actually following the law.

Quote:Keep identifying and removing the people responsible for actual antisemitism and people who are actually preaching violence, but otherwise I think we just need to accept that allowing protests and demonstrations in public spaces are vital and necessary even if you don't agree with them. Once we start deciding what subjects we do and don't allow free speech and assembly on under the guise of needing safe environments you've already begun to lose it.

The first sentence would be a great start, why hasn't it been done.  Why aren't the protestors doing this on their own?  I recall a pro-Trump protest that kicked members of "Patriot Front" who showed up out of the event.  Literally drove them away.  You will never see that happen at these protests.

Quote:I could see limiting the protests to those who are actually students at that campus. You could probably make a case that it isn't a public space for those who aren't enrolled there. I just think even if they aren't well informed or even well intentioned, so long as they don't break the barrier of free speech, you just need to let them continue so long as they're in those public spaces and not in classrooms or offices and the like.

Again, the former would be a good start, why haven't they done that?  As for it being a public space, it isn't, at least in Columbia's case.  They also vandalized and occupied a university building last night and are reported to have breached some dorms as well.  They also apparently held four janitorial staff against their will (this is normally called kidnapping).  Also, as I pointed out earlier, and Bel again mentioned below, the university is required by federal law to maintain a safe environment for all of its students.  It is absolutely not doing that, and there's plenty of Jewish students who have publicly testified directly to this.

(4 hours ago)Belsnickel Wrote: I agree to an extent. There is a mandate from the government that universities must provide a safe learning environment. As much as I am for free speech, there are lines to be drawn when it comes to public safety. Now, this exists in regards to public institutions. Private institutions, like Columbia, still have the federal mandate as they accept Title IV funding, but they are not a government agency and therefore are not capable of violating free speech in the same manner a public institution is.

The problem here is that there is a fine line to be walked, and university administrators just want to salsa.

They don't want to salsa, the problem is they cater to these entitled kids and, let's be honest, a large number of faculty agree with them.  This has been happening to conservative leaning students for a long time.  The difference is this time its happening to a protected class.  Remember when conservative speakers or guests were routinely canceled for "safety reasons" but now we allow enormous, at time violent, and consistently intimidating protests to occur for weeks at a time?  The school acknowledged it's not safe by allowing online classes.  Why would they do that if they didn't realize that some students were not safe on campus?

Columbia is going to be sued into oblivion and they'll deserve every single lawsuit.  Lots of kids getting their tuition money back for this semester.  The really sad thing is that graduation ceremonies are likely to be canceled, and this graduating class is the same that lost their last year of high school to Covid lockdowns.  Those poor kids cannot catch a break.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(1 hour ago)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Again, the former would be a good start, why haven't they done that?  As for it being a public space, it isn't, at least in Columbia's case.  They also vandalized and occupied a university building last night and are reported to have breached some dorms as well.  They also apparently held four janitorial staff against their will (this is normally called kidnapping).  Also, as I pointed out earlier, and Bel again mentioned below, the university is required by federal law to maintain a safe environment for all of its students.  It is absolutely not doing that, and there's plenty of Jewish students who have publicly testified directly to this.

Some have, to admittedly different levels of effort and results...

https://news.yahoo.com/colleges-weigh-crackdowns-protests-questions-113915312.html

Quote:Some schools have tried to curb the influence of outsiders. For instance, Harvard has sought to restrict access only to those who showed a university ID. At Northeastern, officials had asked protesters for their student IDs earlier in the week before the arrests on campus Saturday. Some protesters showed them, while others declined. At Columbia, which closed its gates, protesters on the other side added to a sense of chaos, with many shouting antisemitic chants and threatening students.

As for the invading the dorms or university building, that seems like a university-level punishment issue to me. I suppose if the university refused to punish/reprimand them (I am pretty sure they've been getting suspended, no?) and the people in the building feel unsafe and file a complaint then it becomes more of a issue for law enforcement. At it's base level of just protesting where they shouldn't, it just seems to me more just a internal university issue for discipline.


If people were held against their will, then they need to file a report and then yes it should be a legal issue and the people responsible should be charged. Just those people, though, not the rest. We can't let a minority of a group (even your own estimate said 20%) dictate if we should stop allowing people to exercise some pretty important rights.


I thought the whole Jan 6th protest was dumb, but I supported the right of all the people who were there to protest. The ones that entered the capitol building I supported being arrested and charged. Doesn't mean we should stop the inevitable next protests after this next election. Just punish the people that cross the line again, but you can't shut it all down because rights are rights, not when-we-like-them-rights.


Heck, I don't even agree with these current college protestors, but I feel obligated to support their right to (in my opinion) be wrong. Lol... just take care of the ones who cross the line.