(04-01-2021, 02:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: It will be years before we know what worked, what didn't...but we already know that lots of people would rather see other people die than see the economy slow down while we try to save lives.
I agree with you, on Corona specifically, but just for thought I want to add that we all, at some point, are inclined to put the economy and/or everyone's comfort over saving human life. It's always a debate about scope, not about principle. How much economic or societal damage is worth how much life.
Case in point, we wouldn't go into full lockdown modes and halt the economy to fight the flu, even if that would save several lifes a year. (This is not me comparing Corona to the flu or claiming we should open up in Covid times as well.)
(04-01-2021, 02:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: I agree with you, on Corona specifically, but just for thought I want to add that we all, at some point, are inclined to put the economy and/or everyone's comfort over saving human life. It's always a debate about scope, not about principle. How much economic or societal damage is worth how much life.
Case in point, we wouldn't go into full lockdown modes and halt the economy to fight the flu, even if that would save several lifes a year. (This is not me comparing Corona to the flu or claiming we should open up in Covid times as well.)
Part of the issue was the early framing of the virus as "basically the flu" which has shaped a lot of the public sentiment. People are always tough to move off their initial beliefs so people who dug in early on the flu narrative were never going to move off of it. If you would have told them that one year later it would have caused the same amount of deaths as about 10 years worth of breast cancer, even after lockdowns and massive efforts to contain it, the response by the general public would probably have been different.
Why would it have been different? Because breast cancer advocates have done a really good job of the PR around breast cancer. It's one of the reasons it raises so much money for research, it was positioned well early on and seemed like a "worthy" cause. Amongst cancers, some are treated and funded far more seriously than others because of how well they were positioned in the public eye. Could you imagine people walking around saying that the economy wasn't worth damaging to save people from breast cancer? Of course not, because you would be cast out of society.
(04-01-2021, 02:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: I agree with you, on Corona specifically, but just for thought I want to add that we all, at some point, are inclined to put the economy and/or everyone's comfort over saving human life. It's always a debate about scope, not about principle. How much economic or societal damage is worth how much life.
Case in point, we wouldn't go into full lockdown modes and halt the economy to fight the flu, even if that would save several lifes a year. (This is not me comparing Corona to the flu or claiming we should open up in Covid times as well.)
We would not for the flu. We did (in America that I know of...there was a war in Europe) for the Spanish Flu. We did for polio (to a point).
In this case we should have perhaps done more...but humans are inherently selfish creatures. Our history is filled with people and places destroyed by someone's greed.
And yet some feel comfortable saying "only" 500,000+ deaths weren't worth wearing a mask and getting takeout and not going to the bar.
"You can't make me wear a mask."
"People wearing masks are sheep giving up their freedom!"
"I won't take the virus because I don't believe the virus is that bad."
No one had to like the mitigations but to dismiss all the deaths as so much as worthless because the economy suffered? Selfish and greedy.
I know, I know...next we'll talk about all the mental damage done to people who had to stay home. As if the lack of support from communities didn't add to that too. And the children failing at school as if the lack of parental involvement didn't rear it's ugly head when they were pressed to stay with their own kids instead of complaining about their kids getting "indoctrinated" at school.
There will always be a give and take in society between personal needs and community needs. And when it comes down to it societies fail when personal need overrides the other.
I've said, repeatedly, that we can't empty a parking lot after a sporting event in an organized manner...we can't handle real, national emergencies because too many are "every man for themselves".
Just my opinion.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-01-2021, 03:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: We would not for the flu. We did (in America that I know of...there was a war in Europe) for the Spanish Flu. We did for polio (to a point).
In this case we should have perhaps done more...but humans are inherently selfish creatures. Our history is filled with people and places destroyed by someone's greed.
And yet some feel comfortable saying "only" 500,000+ deaths weren't worth wearing a mask and getting takeout and not going to the bar.
"You can't make me wear a mask."
"People wearing masks are sheep giving up their freedom!"
"I won't take the virus because I don't believe the virus is that bad."
No one had to like the mitigations but to dismiss all the deaths as so much as worthless because the economy suffered? Selfish and greedy.
I know, I know...next we'll talk about all the mental damage done to people who had to stay home. As if the lack of support from communities didn't add to that too. And the children failing at school as if the lack of parental involvement didn't rear it's ugly head when they were pressed to stay with their own kids instead of complaining about their kids getting "indoctrinated" at school.
There will always be a give and take in society between personal needs and community needs. And when it comes down to it societies fail when personal need overrides the other.
I've said, repeatedly, that we can't empty a parking lot after a sporting event in an organized manner...we can't handle real, national emergencies because too many are "every man for themselves".
Just my opinion.
I think you are taking some things the wrong way.
The 550k comment is from a big picture perspective. You are taking it to mean people are selfish and don't care.
Some people do not like injecting things into themselves. I am one of them and so is my wife. It has nothing to do with Covid or conspiracy theories, or Fox, or Trump, etc.
For example, my kids, my wife and myself have never tested positive for the flu, ever, or Strep. We don't want to get injected with a flu vaccine that is just a guess every year anyway. Same with Covid. We have been fine this whole time. We have been around all our friends, family, strangers, masked and unmasked, social distanced and not. We prefer to take our chances with Covid over getting injected with something. I don't even take an ibuprofen unless I am in a lot of pain. I drink water, milk and orange juice pretty much exclusively. I also try to eat somewhat healthy, although I fail there quite often.
I always wear a mask when going into stores and never rock the boat because I know it makes people feel safe and I respect that. Not wearing a mask in a store would be a jerky thing to do. I don't want to wear a mask, but I'm not going to be a jerk about it.
And yes, you are correct, even though you seem to dismiss it. There has been an enormous amount of harm done due to lockdowns and school closings, that IMO, far outweighs 550k deaths of mostly elderly and unhealthy people.
(04-01-2021, 03:24 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I think you are taking some things the wrong way.
The 550k comment is from a big picture perspective. You are taking it to mean people are selfish and don't care.
Some people do not like injecting things into themselves. I am one of them and so is my wife. It has nothing to do with Covid or conspiracy theories, or Fox, or Trump, etc.
For example, my kids, my wife and myself have never tested positive for the flu, ever, or Strep. We don't want to get injected with a flu vaccine that is just a guess every year anyway. Same with Covid. We have been fine this whole time. We have been around all our friends, family, strangers, masked and unmasked, social distanced and not. We prefer to take our chances with Covid over getting injected with something. I don't even take an ibuprofen unless I am in a lot of pain. I drink water, milk and orange juice pretty much exclusively. I also try to eat somewhat healthy, although I fail there quite often.
I always wear a mask when going into stores and never rock the boat because I know it makes people feel safe and I respect that. Not wearing a mask in a store would be a jerky thing to do. I don't want to wear a mask, but I'm not going to be a jerk about it.
And yes, you are correct, even though you seem to dismiss it. There has been an enormous amount of harm done due to lockdowns and school closings, that IMO, far outweighs 550k deaths of mostly elderly and unhealthy people.
It is not the flu.
I don't get a flu shot and never tested positive for it either. I did get strep every year until I was well into my 30's.
I got the covid vaccination and when I get strep I stay away from people so I don't spread it.
Know why? Because in my "big picture perspective" the greater good of the community is as much if not more important than what I want.
I still wear a mask because it is the right/safe thing to do, not because I am concerned that other people might act differently toward me one way or the other.
I'm not dismissing anything...I'm putting the blame where it belongs: we fail as a society when we act as individuals only.
This pandemic highlighted the problems we already had with child care, lack of sick days, healthcare costs, educational systems still operating on old programs, unemployment systems designed to make it hard to sign up and collect, supply chains pushed to the brink to keep costs low, etc. And that too many don't care because "freedom" and "you can't make me". They just want to complain about the situation and put the blame on others.
Again, not surprised at all.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-01-2021, 03:24 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Some people do not like injecting things into themselves.
I realize that some people let irrational fears like this rule their lives, but they just have to stop being little scaredy-cat p*ss@*s.
The United States ended the horrors of polio and many other terrible disease with simple injections. Thank god most citizens aren't chickenshit little babies that let fear control them.
(04-01-2021, 03:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I realize that some people let irrational fears like this rule their lives, but they just have to stop being little scaredy-cat p*ss@*s.
The United States ended the horrors of polio and many other terrible disease with simple injections. Thank god most citizens aren't chickenshit little babies that let fear control them.
Most of those people will still take any sort of life-saving injections, pills, and assistance someone tells them to take when they are faced with a disease that could personally kill them. The reality is those who tend to refuse to take vaccines think they won't be impacted by it, they do not care about the potential ramifications to others because their universe revolves around their singular existence. Refusal to vaccinate comes down to selfishness versus selflessness and it has been pretty obvious through this whole ordeal that there are plenty of selfish people. My favorite is the people who smoke, drink, eat fried food, and tell you how they grew up playing with mercury in school and with lead paint everywhere acting like it is this vaccine that is the true threat to their health and not the previous 30-50 years of bad choices that are likely to have negative ramifications to them.
I've said it before but the people living in this country today could never make it through something like WW2 again. People can't be bothered to wear a mask or get a shot, could you imagine if they were asked to go fight away in another country, ration their consumption, or *GASP* donate their personal property to the war effort?
(04-01-2021, 03:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I realize that some people let irrational fears like this rule their lives, but they just have to stop being little scaredy-cat p*ss@*s.
The United States ended the horrors of polio and many other terrible disease with simple injections. Thank god most citizens aren't chickenshit little babies that let fear control them.
Who said it was fear. I said don't like to. I'm not scared to get the flu shot or the covid shot. I simply choose not to. I'm just not a pill/medication person. Does not mean I am scared of them.
If the flu or the covid shots were cures that would be a different story.
(04-01-2021, 03:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: Most of those people will still take any sort of life-saving injections, pills, and assistance someone tells them to take when they are faced with a disease that could personally kill them. The reality is those who tend to refuse to take vaccines think they won't be impacted by it, they do not care about the potential ramifications to others because their universe revolves around their singular existence. Refusal to vaccinate comes down to selfishness versus selflessness and it has been pretty obvious through this whole ordeal that there are plenty of selfish people. My favorite is the people who smoke, drink, eat fried food, and tell you how they grew up playing with mercury in school and with lead paint everywhere acting like it is this vaccine that is the true threat to their health and not the previous 30-50 years of bad choices that are likely to have negative ramifications to them.
I've said it before but the people living in this country today could never make it through something like WW2 again. People can't be bothered to wear a mask or get a shot, could you imagine if they were asked to go fight away in another country, ration their consumption, or *GASP* donate their personal property to the war effort?
Never once did I say I was scared of the Flu shot or the Covid shot.
Show me some credible, long term (5+ years), scientific evidence that getting the covid shot now makes it impossible to transmit or be infected by covid.
All these posts about selfish this and individual that are just BS.
(04-01-2021, 04:52 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Never once did I say I was scared of the Flu shot or the Covid shot.
Show me some credible, long term (5+ years), scientific evidence that getting the covid shot now makes it impossible to transmit or be infected by covid.
All these posts about selfish this and individual that are just BS.
I said the same thing about "anti-vaxers" before the pandemic so don't feel attacked as it's beyond just these shots, it's everyone who doesn't understand or care how vaccines work. No vaccine makes it impossible for those things to occur, Polio for instance, only had an 80- 90% efficacy at first and eventually, they figured out a combination to get it to 99%...but that is still not 100%. The whole idea however is that through a large enough population having it you essentially kill it off through herd immunity.
What we do know is that the vaccine does prevent death and hospitalizations at an almost 100% rate, and assuming the main goal is to prevent those things we have achieved it. How long they continue to keep that protection is unimportant as we can booster that response again (latest tests show we are good at 6 months still with further evaluation as time goes) like we have had to do with other vaccines, until we can eliminate the threat or adapt. As for the transmission, early research has shown a depressed viral load in those who are immunized that makes transmission MUCH less likely. Is it the arbitrary (5+ years) of research you want? No, but that number has no bearing on anything. If there was a deadly plague killing people of your age and demographic I seriously doubt you would set up such a strawman argument.
Your "choice" has real consequences to others so the selfishness point stands. You have confirmed such in ways you described those who have died as expendable. You believe that your choice to not do something so small is more important than "elderly and those with underlying conditions" dropping dead in large quantities, that is about as selfish as one can be.
(04-01-2021, 04:46 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Who said it was fear. I said don't like to. I'm not scared to get the flu shot or the covid shot. I simply choose not to. I'm just not a pill/medication person. Does not mean I am scared of them.
(04-01-2021, 04:52 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: All these posts about selfish this and individual that are just BS.
No. They are directly on point. In 2000 measles was almost completely eliminated by vaccines, but now thanks to selfish chickenlittles like yourself who get scared over every internet story about the dangers of injections we are now seeing outbreaks all across the country.
You are too elfish to go to the trouble to educate yourself. Instead you just cower in fear of "injections" and damage the health of the entire country.
(04-01-2021, 05:05 PM)Au165 Wrote: I said the same thing about "anti-vaxers" before the pandemic so don't feel attacked as it's beyond just these shots, it's everyone who doesn't understand or care how vaccines work. No vaccine makes it impossible for those things to occur, Polio for instance, only had an 80- 90% efficacy at first and eventually, they figured out a combination to get it to 99%...but that is still not 100%. The whole idea however is that through a large enough population having it you essentially kill it off through herd immunity.
What we do know is that the vaccine does prevent death and hospitalizations at an almost 100% rate, and assuming the main goal is to prevent those things we have achieved it. How long they continue to keep that protection is unimportant as we can booster that response again (latest tests show we are good at 6 months still with further evaluation as time goes) like we have had to do with other vaccines, until we can eliminate the threat or adapt. As for the transmission, early research has shown a depressed viral load in those who are immunized that makes transmission MUCH less likely. Is it the arbitrary (5+ years) of research you want? No, but that number has no bearing on anything. If there was a deadly plague killing people of your age and demographic I seriously doubt you would set up such a strawman argument.
Your "choice" has real consequences to others so the selfishness point stands. You have confirmed such in ways you described those who have died as expendable. You believe that your choice to not do something so small is more important than "elderly and those with underlying conditions" dropping dead in large quantities, that is about as selfish as one can be.
Excellent post.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2021, 09:14 AM)Au165 Wrote: Just saw a report that suicides FELL in 2020, so I guess there goes that argument regarding why the lockdown was so bad for the country.
It was my understanding that we didn't have all the numbers yet? I had heard an interview that said it was only the first quarter...but that was about two weeks ago.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2021, 09:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: It was my understanding that we didn't have all the numbers yet? I had heard an interview that said it was only the first quarter...but that was about two weeks ago.
NCHS data for 2020 is in and it's a 5.6% drop. All NCHS data is essentially "provisional" for a year, but in reality, the numbers usually move very little after this publication.
With the new "Double Mutant" variant hitting the U.S. recently here is another reminder to get your vaccine. The longer people go unvaccinated the quicker mutated variants will form, and the greater risk of an even deadlier version emerging.
(04-05-2021, 09:50 AM)Au165 Wrote: With the new "Double Mutant" variant hitting the U.S. recently here is another reminder to get your vaccine. The longer people go unvaccinated the quicker mutated variants will form, and the greater risk of an even deadlier version emerging.
Just not happening. People still "know" this virus isn't as bad as "the media" says it is and they won't get an "untested" vaccine. I'm seeing it all over social media and hearing it from friends.
It's sad and frustrating.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2021, 09:44 AM)Au165 Wrote: NCHS data for 2020 is in and it's a 5.6% drop. All NCHS data is essentially "provisional" for a year, but in reality, the numbers usually move very little after this publication.
Even if it did go up in 2020 that is not unusual because it had been going up every year for a while.
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