Counting prisoners in the census

[Belsnickel]

There was a recent article in the Huffington Post that made me start thinking about this issue.

The author of the article focuses primarily on the issue of redistricting based on this information. I was curious about other impacts, such as potential resources being diverted from lower income areas because of the way prisoners are being counted. Are there ways that this can affect areas beyond just the redistricting angle?

The article is referring to the announcement on 14 February that the Census Bureau will continue the trend of counting prisoners at their location of incarceration, what they deem to be their 'usual residence'. Their webpage explains the reasoning behind this.

Quote:The Census Act of 1790 established the concept of “usual residence” as the main principle in determining where people should be counted, and this concept has been followed in all subsequent censuses. “Usual residence” has been defined as the place where a person lives and sleeps most of the time. This place is not necessarily the same as the person's voting residence or legal residence.

The article cites a memo (pdf alert) from the Prison Policy Initiative that lays out an argument for not counting prisoners where they are incarcerated.

The numbers are not yet out for 2017, but with a prison population at the end of 2016 of around 1.5 million people, it is worthy of discussion; looking at the arguments for and against counting prisoners where they are imprisoned and the potential impacts either direction can have on communities.

So, what do you think? Should we be counting prisoners at their "home" address, or where they are incarcerated? Do you know of any other impacts beyond the redistricting component? For an even broader conversation, how do you feel about the way we do the census overall?

[BmorePat87]

Besides the biggest prisons, this likely doesn't have a huge impact on redistricting, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth addressing. Then again, most of these large prisons are in urban centers and their populations are likely primarily from these areas.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 01:42 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Besides the biggest prisons, this likely doesn't have a huge impact on redistricting, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth addressing. Then again, most of these large prisons are in urban centers and their populations are likely primarily from these areas.

Are the prisons located there? Most of the ones I know of, at least in the states I am familiar with, are in more rural areas.

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2018, 01:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are the prisons located there? Most of the ones I know of, at least in the states I am familiar with, are in more rural areas.

From what I read, LA, NYC, Houston, and Chicago have the largest prisons and they're all located within the city itself (Riker's Island is an island between two boroughs). 
I could be wrong with my numbers on these being the largest. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 01:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: From what I read, LA, NYC, Houston, and Chicago have the largest prisons and they're all located within the city itself (Riker's Island is an island between two boroughs). 
I could be wrong with my numbers on these being the largest. 

Those would be the largest prisons being there, but that doesn't mean most large prisons are located in urban centers. I see what you were saying, now, but your original statement was something different. For instance, though, Angola is the largest maximum security prison in the country and it is is BFE. That's around 6300 inmates in the middle of nowhere. How many possibly came from more urban areas in Louisiana?

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2018, 02:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Those would be the largest prisons being there, but that doesn't mean most large prisons are located in urban centers. I see what you were saying, now, but your original statement was something different. For instance, though, Angola is the largest maximum security prison in the country and it is is BFE. That's around 6300 inmates in the middle of nowhere. How many possibly came from more urban areas in Louisiana?

Yea, my numbers were local "jails" not federal or state prisons, so that's not adequate enough for this conversation. Can't find any numbers on prisons.

[Benton]

I used to do the newspaper in Lyon County, KY, which is home to Kentucky State Penitentiary and a lower security facility called WKCC. They account for about 2,500 people in the county, which otherwise has a population of about 5,500. It skews the numbers since the population there is so small. But what's worse is the tax laws. The state/local government owns a big chunk of property in the prisons, public buildings, etc. They also own about a third of the county in a national park. So all that money that could be picked up for taxes goes mostly without generating revenue.

[GMDino]

Excellent question Matt.

Can the prisoners vote?  If they are allowed to vote, while in prison, for that district I would suppose they have to be counted.

If they are not voting then I'd treat them like vacationers.  Where they should be counted in their own districts.

[*michaelsean*]

What is their home address? I would guess after a few months in prison, many no longer have a home address.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 04:40 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What is their home address? I would guess after a few months in prison, many no longer have a home address.

You would be surprised. I don't have any good data on it, but I know a lot return to a home they share with family.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You would be surprised. I don't have any good data on it, but I know a lot return to a home they share with family.

Oh I'm sure there are, but there have to be a lot who lived in an apt which is no longer theirs.  If they have a wife and the wife moves, does the new place count as his residence?  I just think you would have a fair amount of people with no current residence after a short period of time.  Outside of that, I personally don't care one way or the other. Just be consistent.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 04:46 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh I'm sure there are, but there have to be a lot who lived in an apt which is no longer theirs.  If they have a wife and the wife moves, does the new place count as his residence?  I just think you would have a fair amount of people with no current residence after a short period of time.  Outside of that, I personally don't care one way or the other. Just be consistent.

I think a lot would depend on the state. I have no doubt that some states have some sort of permanent address maintained for the prisoner on file due to correspondences with next of kin and what not. It would be interesting to consider a policy solution for this. Though I am in favor of a statistical modeling being used for the census, anyway, because the current system is highly inaccurate.

[*michaelsean*]

And of course they can't help themselves:

Quote:The Census Bureau isn’t treating them with the kind of care and deference that they treat boarding school students who are predominantly white and wealthy,” she said.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 04:52 PM)michaelsean Wrote: And of course they can't help themselves:

Oh, of course not. This is why I have worded things the way I have and included other sources. This was also posted on /r/NeutralPolitics (except for the last part in my OP) which has strict standards on how things get phrased and everything to allow for civil discussion of the issue.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-19-2018, 04:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Oh, of course not. This is why I have worded things the way I have and included other sources. This was also posted on /r/NeutralPolitics (except for the last part in my OP) which has strict standards on how things get phrased and everything to allow for civil discussion of the issue.

Oh no you were fine.  I had just read your summary, and then thought well maybe some of the things I'm asking are included in the whole story so I took a look.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 05:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh no you were fine.  I had just read your summary, and then thought well maybe some of the things I'm asking are included in the whole story so I took a look.

Hahaha! You're funny! Honestly, someone told me about the HuffPost article, or I would've never known about it because I just don't trust them for anything. I posted it on Reddit because sometimes you get people come out of the woodworks that know some serious shit and I am genuinely interested in the answers. I just thought it'd be fun to bring it over here, as well. Unfortunately, not many responses yet on Reddit, though if there is anything good I will bring it over.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I think it's fine. If you think about it, say you have 5,000 people who are going to spend 2-30 years there. The food they get are delivered on your roads, if they need to be sent to a hospital, they're sent to your hospital. If they have a fire, they're sent your firefighters. The water and electricity they get are using your utilities. If they escape, your police are the ones having to help search for them. So on, so forth.

If your utilities/emergency servies/public services are going to be used for them, and you've got them long term, then sure, why wouldn't you count them? Why shouldn't that town or whatever have an extra say in what happens?

[fredtoast]

Since many prisoners do not have any "home address" I'd say this is the most efficient and easiest way to do it.

[Vas Deferens]

(02-19-2018, 06:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think it's fine. If you think about it, say you have 5,000 people who are going to spend 2-30 years there. The food they get are delivered on your roads, if they need to be sent to a hospital, they're sent to your hospital. If they have a fire, they're sent your firefighters. The water and electricity they get are using your utilities. If they escape, your police are the ones having to help search for them. So on, so forth.

If your utilities/emergency servies/public services are going to be used for them, and you've got them long term, then sure, why wouldn't you count them? Why shouldn't that town or whatever have an extra say in what happens?

Great points Leonard.  Hadnt thought about it in this context.

Do you think there would be any distinction along these lines when its a federal vs state penitentiary?  Only I can think of along these lines would be greater FBI involvement in search teams...  

  

[SunsetBengal]

(02-19-2018, 06:33 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Great points Leonard.  Hadnt thought about it in this context.

Do you think there would be any distinction along these lines when its a federal vs state penitentiary?  Only I can think of along these lines would be greater FBI involvement in search teams...  

  

Weather it be Federal or State penitentiary, the inmates are still residents of that location, while they are serving their sentence.  The only real difference I can think of is when Federal inmates are released, they go back to their home State.