Crosby and Ngakoue context

[pdub2005]

(01-13-2022, 01:26 PM)spidey Wrote: I like our chances against your line.    Henderickson/Hubbard>Crosby/Ngakoue plus the pass rush from our interior dl.  I think its going to be a long day for Carr.

I like our d-line as a whole better than theirs, but I have to give the Raiders the nod when it comes to edge pass rushing. Ngakoue definitely puts more pressure on QBs than Hubbard does.

[Frank Booth]

(01-13-2022, 12:02 PM)attyla Wrote: I like our chances vs your line.

how do you feel about people saying Hendrickson & Hubbard > Crosby & Ngaukwe?

because if I was a raiders fan browsing this board, I'd just have to take a break for the day

[*ochocincos*]

Bengals can add more protection to reduce the impact of the Raiders pass rushers.
Use TEs more.
Use an extra OL.
Rush the ball effectively and more often.

[attyla]

(01-13-2022, 01:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: how do you feel about people saying Hendrickson & Hubbard > Crosby & Ngaukwe?

because if I was a raiders fan browsing this board, I'd just have to take a break for the day

your line is good no doubt.  I still like Maxx' chances vs your Oline.  I think our Oline has improved greatly since our first meeting.  Guess we will see who wins those battles.

[Graphicguy]

Good lord...ya'll act like the Raiders' ends are the only guys playing this game.

Plus, we all know how Joe B has become healthier and better as the season progressed.

Plus, our starters are rested.

Plus, we probably have the best 3 WR tandems in the league.

Plus, Joe Mixon, who scored 2 TDs and had 125 yards the last meeting.

Plus, Trey Hendrickson is a wrecking crew, too.

Plus, we're playing at home.

Mercy......I feel better about this game than I did the first one.

[spidey]

(01-13-2022, 01:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: how do you feel about people saying Hendrickson & Hubbard > Crosby & Ngaukwe?

because if I was a raiders fan browsing this board, I'd just have to take a break for the day

I'll stand by my statement.  

Maybe its homerism (wouldn't be the first time that I've been accused of that) but we'll see which duo rises up this Saturday.  I just know that our duo out played them in the 1st meeting.

[Interceptor]

(01-13-2022, 12:11 PM)attyla Wrote: past performance does not ensure future results.

Sage advice from the Daily Racing Form. 

[*Synric*]

(01-13-2022, 01:38 PM)attyla Wrote: your line is good no doubt.  I still like Maxx' chances vs your Oline.  I think our Oline has improved greatly since our first meeting.  Guess we will see who wins those battles.

I like the Bengals defense vs from what I see the Raiders want to do.

First and foremost the Raiders want to get Josh Jacobs going but vs the Bengals stout front 7 running thr ball is hard. Darren Waller played well vs the Bengals but he is a little banged up now and thr Bengals are trying something new vs those pass catching TEs on 3rd downs putting a big corner Tre Flowers on them. Chibidoe Awuzie, Eli Apple, and Mike Hilton matchup well vs Brian Edwards, Zay Jones, and Hunter Renfrow.

We really seen this play out in the Bengals vs Raiders game earlier this season.

...but as always Any Given Sunday.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-13-2022, 11:31 AM)wcu Wrote: Every single article or message board I've read regarding our Raiders game talks about how the Bengals O-line is a liability (they are) and how Ngokoue and Crosby (specifically) are going to feast and that's how the Raiders are going to be able to beat they Bengals (certainly a possibility).  Yes, I realize that Crosby lead the league in pressure rate from the DE position (sounds like Carl Lawson), but let's not act like he is the end all and be all of NFL pass rushers.

This year we have faced:

Danielle Hunter
Robert Quinn
Khalil Mack
Josh Allen
Preston Smith
Rashan Gary
Myles Garrett (twice)
Jadaveon Clowney (twice)
Maxx Crosby
Yanick Ngokoue
TJ Watt
Cam Heyward (twice)
Joey Bosa
Nick Bosa

There's no doubt that some of these guys got home against the Bengals, but were any of them so debilitatingly effective that they just wrecked our whole game and prevented us from competing?  It's an honest question, I really don't remember that happening though.  Crosby is good, but he's not on the same level as the Bosa Brothers (0 and 2 sacks against us) or TJ Watt (0 sacks against us) or Myles Garrett (2.5 in 2 games) or Robert Quinn (2 sacks against us).

I'm just already getting sick about hearing about that pass rush.  We've faced and survived (and even thrived against) much worse.  I may eat a huge plate of multiple crows, but I have faith that we'll have a good enough game plan to keep Ngokoue and Crosby (who by the way combined for 1 sack last time) from taking over.  I almost get the sense that they're the one shred of hope the Raiders have and so the media has to talk about it to make it interesting.

I'm not saying the Raiders don't have a chance.  Of course they do.  They're obviously a good team, but I just don't buy that stopping Maxx Crosby is some insurmountable task compared with other guys we've faced.

It is a good point about these guys would have to be SO good that they would have to wreck our whole game...

I don't see THAT happening at all, it is just the one strength they have to our one weakness in our RT's.

It is about the only thing that really scares me, if we get home on Carr it is much more in our favor as Carr struggles 
mightily when pressured and Hendrickson leads the NFL in QB pressure percentage at a little over 19%.

[Joelist]

(01-13-2022, 01:43 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Good lord...ya'll act like the Raiders' ends are the only guys playing this game.  

Plus, we all know how Joe B has become healthier and better as the season progressed.

Plus, our starters are rested.

Plus, we probably have the best 3 WR tandems in the league.

Plus, Joe Mixon, who scored 2 TDs and had 125 yards the last meeting.

Plus, Trey Hendrickson is a wrecking crew, too.

Plus, we're playing at home.

Mercy......I feel better about this game than I did the first one.

Yep. You have to remember that when we played the Raiders last time we had more differences than just pre-Reiff injury:

1) Burrow was still not really moving around and navigating the pocket and/or running. He has since gotten the rest of the way back to his pre-injury pocket elusiveness and mobility. 

2) The offense is using Chase more creatively now - he now lines up in different spots and sometimes is the slot and sometimes outside among other things. 

3) Burrow is starting to use outlet receivers and quick throws more when he just doesn't see the big play there. 

Remember the Raiders line has been seen before, and indeed this whole season for the Bengals has been a who's who of the top pass rushers in the league. Which leads to Burrow being unflappable. For pressure to really affect a QB they have to feel it and it needs to affect their game and their internal clock - so far Burrow shows neither effect which is a big reason he is torching defenses regardless of their pressure. 

[fredtoast]

(01-13-2022, 01:43 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Mercy......I feel better about this game than I did the first one.

Strike first!

Strike hard!

NO MERCY!!!!!!!

[WeezyBengal]

(01-13-2022, 12:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Joey Bosa actually only played 12% of the defensive snaps against the Bengals. They still sacked Burrow 6 times and hit him 11 times. Loss.

Nick Bosa got 2 of the 5 sacks against Burrow and held the Bengals to 6 points in the first 3 quarters. Loss.

Burrow only played Garrett and Clowney once and he had an absolutely terrible game (0 TD/2 INT) and got sacked 5 times in a blowout. Loss.

Preston Smith and Rashan Gary I don't know if they're exactly top tier pass rushers, but Burrow did have a bad 2 INT game even if they didn't light up the stat sheet. Loss.

Robert Quinn and Khalil Mack had 3 sacks of the 5 total against Burrow in a 3 INT game. Loss.

- - - - - - -

I do find it interesting that you listed 14 guys and 8 of those 14 were on the 6 teams that beat the Burrow Bengals this year including all 4 of Burrow's multi-interception games this year.

It's like people don't realize Burrow is the most sacked QB in the league. 

[Frank Booth]

(01-13-2022, 05:42 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: It's like people don't realize Burrow is the most sacked QB in the league. 

which no doubt contributed to his 14 interceptions

[MickMack]

(01-13-2022, 11:31 AM)wcu Wrote: Every single article or message board I've read regarding our Raiders game talks about how the Bengals O-line is a liability (they are) and how Ngokoue and Crosby (specifically) are going to feast and that's how the Raiders are going to be able to beat they Bengals (certainly a possibility).  Yes, I realize that Crosby lead the league in pressure rate from the DE position (sounds like Carl Lawson), but let's not act like he is the end all and be all of NFL pass rushers.

This year we have faced:

Danielle Hunter
Robert Quinn
Khalil Mack
Josh Allen
Preston Smith
Rashan Gary
Myles Garrett (twice)
Jadaveon Clowney (twice)
Maxx Crosby
Yanick Ngokoue
TJ Watt
Cam Heyward (twice)
Joey Bosa
Nick Bosa

There's no doubt that some of these guys got home against the Bengals, but were any of them so debilitatingly effective that they just wrecked our whole game and prevented us from competing?  It's an honest question, I really don't remember that happening though.  Crosby is good, but he's not on the same level as the Bosa Brothers (0 and 2 sacks against us) or TJ Watt (0 sacks against us) or Myles Garrett (2.5 in 2 games) or Robert Quinn (2 sacks against us).

I'm just already getting sick about hearing about that pass rush.  We've faced and survived (and even thrived against) much worse.  I may eat a huge plate of multiple crows, but I have faith that we'll have a good enough game plan to keep Ngokoue and Crosby (who by the way combined for 1 sack last time) from taking over.  I almost get the sense that they're the one shred of hope the Raiders have and so the media has to talk about it to make it interesting.

I'm not saying the Raiders don't have a chance.  Of course they do.  They're obviously a good team, but I just don't buy that stopping Maxx Crosby is some insurmountable task compared with other guys we've faced.

I think there are two different questions at play.  First, can the Bengals stop good pass rushers.  And I think you've answered the question above with an affirmative yes.  But the second question is what happens when they don't stop them and teams get to Burrow.  Well the answer is the team usually loses.  27 of the 51 times Burrow was sacked came in the six losses he played in.  That's an average of 4.5 sacks per loss.  The team's record was 0-1 when he was sacked 6 times; 1-5 when Burrow was sacked at least 5 times; 2-5 when he was sacked at least 4 times; and 5-6 when he was sacked at least three times.  They were 5-0 when he was sacked less than 3 times.  So why is that the case?  Yeah, it sucks to see our QB get hit and can throw him off of his game, but look at Kansas City and Minnesota - sacked 4 and 5 times but had phenomenal games.  Sure it happens but I think the increase in sacks leads to an increase in interceptions more often than not.  10 of Burrow's 14 interceptions came in the six losses he played in (all of which involved at least 3 sacks).  He had 27 touchdowns to 4 interceptions in the remaining games.  Based on what I've seen this season the only way you can stop Burrow is to disrupt his pocket and cause turnovers.  Otherwise he's literally unstoppable.  So the absolute key to the game is to limit the Raiders to less than 3 sacks and that starts by neutralizing Ngokoue and Crosby.    

[ezekiel23]

(01-13-2022, 11:31 AM)wcu Wrote: Every single article or message board I've read regarding our Raiders game talks about how the Bengals O-line is a liability (they are) and how Ngokoue and Crosby (specifically) are going to feast and that's how the Raiders are going to be able to beat they Bengals (certainly a possibility). Yes, I realize that Crosby lead the league in pressure rate from the DE position (sounds like Carl Lawson), but let's not act like he is the end all and be all of NFL pass rushers.

This year we have faced:

Danielle Hunter
Robert Quinn
Khalil Mack
Josh Allen
Preston Smith
Rashan Gary
Myles Garrett (twice)
Jadaveon Clowney (twice)
Maxx Crosby
Yanick Ngokoue
TJ Watt
Cam Heyward (twice)
Joey Bosa
Nick Bosa

There's no doubt that some of these guys got home against the Bengals, but were any of them so debilitatingly effective that they just wrecked our whole game and prevented us from competing? It's an honest question, I really don't remember that happening though. Crosby is good, but he's not on the same level as the Bosa Brothers (0 and 2 sacks against us) or TJ Watt (0 sacks against us) or Myles Garrett (2.5 in 2 games) or Robert Quinn (2 sacks against us).

I'm just already getting sick about hearing about that pass rush. We've faced and survived (and even thrived against) much worse. I may eat a huge plate of multiple crows, but I have faith that we'll have a good enough game plan to keep Ngokoue and Crosby (who by the way combined for 1 sack last time) from taking over. I almost get the sense that they're the one shred of hope the Raiders have and so the media has to talk about it to make it interesting.

I'm not saying the Raiders don't have a chance. Of course they do. They're obviously a good team, but I just don't buy that stopping Maxx Crosby is some insurmountable task compared with other guys we've faced.

You just said that the Raiders have a chance.And I agree.But,Crosby and Ngokoue are their best chance of upsetting the Bengals by getting Joe Burrow of his mark,and creating turnovers.Hopefully the Bengals have a game plan that prevents this from happening.

[grampahol]

(01-13-2022, 02:09 PM)Synric Wrote: I like the Bengals defense vs from what I see the Raiders want to do.

First and foremost the Raiders want to get Josh Jacobs going but vs the Bengals stout front 7 running thr ball is hard. Darren Waller played well vs the Bengals but he is a little banged up now and thr Bengals are trying something new vs those pass catching TEs on 3rd downs putting a big corner Tre Flowers on them. Chibidoe Awuzie, Eli Apple, and Mike Hilton matchup well vs Brian Edwards, Zay Jones, and Hunter Renfrow.

We really seen this play out in the Bengals vs Raiders game earlier this season.

...but as always Any Given Sunday.

Any given can be for either team and player for that matter..Anyone can go down with injuries or have the best game of their careers. Anyone can scoop up a fumble & score if it's bounced to the right spot. For that matter any o'lineman can grab a tipped pass & score. Special teams are almost always a free for all if the ball gets lose. Hell, even the punters can grab a fumble and score under the right or wrong circumstances depending on which side it happens against..

[*jason*]

(01-13-2022, 12:11 PM)attyla Wrote: past performance does not ensure future results.

If only you knew that all gingers fall flat on their face in the postseason at Paul Brown Stadium. We've faced better pass rushers.

[Frank Booth]

(01-13-2022, 08:18 PM)jason Wrote: If only you knew that all gingers fall flat on their face in the postseason at Paul Brown Stadium. We've faced better pass rushers.

we're facing the 2nd best edge rusher in the league this saturday

Myles Garret is number 1

and we havent had great succes with Garrett

Im frightened

[Graphicguy]

(01-13-2022, 05:42 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: It's like people don't realize Burrow is the most sacked QB in the league. 

Or that Mixon rushed for 120+ yards and 2 TDs the first time we plaid Vegas and is a ProBowler.

Or that Trey Hendrickson is a ProBowler.

Or that Burrow has a QBR of 108+

I could go on and on and on, as I haven't even talked about Chase, Higgins, Uzoma, Boyd, Awuzie, McPherson.....

Geez Louise......There's not a team in either league who wouldn't LOVE to have any of those guys on their roster.

[Devils Advocate]

(01-13-2022, 11:31 AM)wcu Wrote: Every single article or message board I've read regarding our Raiders game talks about how the Bengals O-line is a liability (they are) and how Ngokoue and Crosby (specifically) are going to feast and that's how the Raiders are going to be able to beat they Bengals (certainly a possibility). Yes, I realize that Crosby lead the league in pressure rate from the DE position (sounds like Carl Lawson), but let's not act like he is the end all and be all of NFL pass rushers.

This year we have faced:

Danielle Hunter
Robert Quinn
Khalil Mack
Josh Allen
Preston Smith
Rashan Gary
Myles Garrett (twice)
Jadaveon Clowney (twice)
Maxx Crosby
Yanick Ngokoue
TJ Watt
Cam Heyward (twice)
Joey Bosa
Nick Bosa

There's no doubt that some of these guys got home against the Bengals, but were any of them so debilitatingly effective that they just wrecked our whole game and prevented us from competing? It's an honest question, I really don't remember that happening though. Crosby is good, but he's not on the same level as the Bosa Brothers (0 and 2 sacks against us) or TJ Watt (0 sacks against us) or Myles Garrett (2.5 in 2 games) or Robert Quinn (2 sacks against us).

I'm just already getting sick about hearing about that pass rush. We've faced and survived (and even thrived against) much worse. I may eat a huge plate of multiple crows, but I have faith that we'll have a good enough game plan to keep Ngokoue and Crosby (who by the way combined for 1 sack last time) from taking over. I almost get the sense that they're the one shred of hope the Raiders have and so the media has to talk about it to make it interesting.

I'm not saying the Raiders don't have a chance. Of course they do. They're obviously a good team, but I just don't buy that stopping Maxx Crosby is some insurmountable task compared with other guys we've faced.

TWatt