Cuba

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Surprised nobody started a thread or even seems interested in this historic event. First President since Coolidge to visit the island nation. So what do you guys think? Good, bad...indifferent?

[GMDino]

I hope it opens better relations and that over time the people there gain more freedom.

However we have plenty of long term allies that have horrible records with human rights so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Probably this will just be another time where some businesses make money by seeing an new market and nothing else really changes.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(03-24-2016, 01:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: I hope it opens better relations and that over time the people there gain more freedom.

However we have plenty of long term allies that have horrible records with human rights so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Probably this will just be another time where some businesses make money by seeing an new market and nothing else really changes.

Pretty much my thoughts on it.  I always thought it was weird that we have better foreign relationships with Russia, China, and Vietnam than we do with Cuba.  It will take a lot of time for real change.  However a shift in US policy is long over due IMHO.

[*michaelsean*]

How come he gets to go? Guess he's above the law.

I'm kind of worried about what it will do with my cigars, yet the President didn't even ask me.

[Benton]

Positive step forward for everybody. And long overdue.

[*bfine32*]

(03-24-2016, 01:44 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Surprised nobody started a thread or even seems interested in this historic event. First President since Coolidge to visit the island nation. So what do you guys think? Good, bad...indifferent?

Further surprised that his greeting party at the Airport was a cabby with an Obama sign held up for this historic arrival.

[Bengalzona]

You ever wonder what they did to us to make us so mad at them?

It's simple.

They decided to be communists and made friends with the Soviet Union.



That's pretty much it. Right?

Sure, they did let the Soviets move some short-range nuclear missiles there in the early 60's. But why did Soviets want to do that? Because we were already doing the same thing to them by stationing short-range nukes in Turkey, their underbelly. It was a tit-for-tat. And the ultimate deal that removed the missiles from Cuba was that we would remove ours from Turkey, which we did.

So, the Soviet Union has been deceased for almost a quarter of a century now. Yet... we are still mad at them. They are commies. And yet, we are buddies with China. They are commies too, right?


No. Our problems with Cuba aren't about them being commies or their former friendship with the Soviets. Our problem with the Cubans is pride. They embarrassed us, in our opinion. They did it over and over again. Sort of like the Road Runner and Wiley Coyote. Are you guys aware of how many attempts the CIA made to embarrass or even assassinate Fidel Castro? Declassified files show that they tried over a dozen times. And some of the attempts were just ignorant. An example: they tried to have Nair put in his skin diving suit to burn off his beard and embarrass him when he had to speak in front of his people on TV beardless. Yes, we actually tried to do that. Worse yet, we failed. In fact, we failed at every attempt.

And that, in a nutshell, is what we hold against the Cubans. It wasn't that they succeeded. It was that we failed, over and over again. And we had too much pride to accept that we failed, just as we had too much pride to admit that a lot of the stupid shit the CIA tried was... well, stupid shit.

And... we have politicians still today who want us to ignore the stupid shit that we did and continue to ignore Cuba as if they don't exist. Why? Because they still cannot face that we did ignorant shit. That's what pride will get you.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

All this will do is open up Cuba to tourists...that's it.

It's a start though and maybe eventually the Cuban government will allow people to own business and bring in much needed money into the country.

[fredtoast]

(03-24-2016, 05:21 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: You ever wonder what they did to us to make us so mad at them?

It's simple.

They decided to be communists and made friends with the Soviet Union.



That's pretty much it. Right?

Sure, they did let the Soviets move some short-range nuclear missiles there in the early 60's. But why did Soviets want to do that? Because we were already doing the same thing to them by stationing short-range nukes in Turkey, their underbelly. It was a tit-for-tat. And the ultimate deal that removed the missiles from Cuba was that we would remove ours from Turkey, which we did.

So, the Soviet Union has been deceased for almost a quarter of a century now. Yet... we are still mad at them. They are commies. And yet, we are buddies with China. They are commies too, right?


No. Our problems with Cuba aren't about them being commies or their former friendship with the Soviets. Our problem with the Cubans is pride. They embarrassed us, in our opinion. They did it over and over again. Sort of like the Road Runner and Wiley Coyote. Are you guys aware of how many attempts the CIA made to embarrass or even assassinate Fidel Castro? Declassified files show that they tried over a dozen times. And some of the attempts were just ignorant. An example: they tried to have Nair put in his skin diving suit to burn off his beard and embarrass him when he had to speak in front of his people on TV beardless. Yes, we actually tried to do that. Worse yet, we failed. In fact, we failed at every attempt.

And that, in a nutshell, is what we hold against the Cubans. It wasn't that they succeeded. It was that we failed, over and over again. And we had too much pride to accept that we failed, just as we had too much pride to admit that a lot of the stupid shit the CIA tried was... well, stupid shit.

And... we have politicians still today who want us to ignore the stupid shit that we did and continue to ignore Cuba as if they don't exist. Why? Because they still cannot face that we did ignorant shit. That's what pride will get you.

I think Cuba was treated a little differently than other dictatorship around the world we partner with because there are so many Cuban refugees here in the United States.  It is easy for our President to to be seen as buddy buddy with the oppressive House of Saud because there are not hundreds of thousands of refugees from Saudi Arabia here telling first hand stories of their family members being imprisoned and killed just for political reasons.

[fredtoast]

(03-24-2016, 05:41 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: All this will do is open up Cuba to tourists...that's it.

It's a start though and maybe eventually the Cuban government will allow people to own business and bring in much needed money into the country.

Fifty years of embargoes have failed, but maybe after they get used to the extra income we can threaten to take it back away.

They were not missing something because they had forgotten what it was like to have it.

[BengalHawk62]

Can I please get a Cuban cigar, legally?  Is that too much to ask?  How about some absinthe to sip it down with?

[*bfine32*]

(03-24-2016, 05:21 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: You ever wonder what they did to us to make us so mad at them?

It's simple.

They decided to be communists and made friends with the Soviet Union.



That's pretty much it. Right?

I think it had more to due with executions and the government taking over private lands by force if required.

I think the real question is what did we do to make them so mad at us. After the Soviet collapse we tried to offer aid and they refused. I never saw us a "being mad" at Cuba. I've always seen it as us not forcing them to be our friends.

[Bengalzona]

(03-24-2016, 06:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it had more to due with executions and the government taking over private lands by force if required.

I think the real question is what did we do to make them so mad at us. After the Soviet collapse we tried to offer aid and they refused. I never saw us a "being mad" at Cuba. I've always seen it as us not forcing them to be our friends.

"We are not mad at them" is post-Cold War revisionist writing. The facts are contrary. We have held a grudge. They have too. But we started it.

Some interesting reading from, none other than, the CIA library on the subject of Castro:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no4/Castro_Obsession_10.htm

They do not deny attempts were made and that some attempts were just laughable:

Quote:Not a single foreign-based assassination plan is known to have come close to succeeding and most, including all of those hatched in the CIA under pressure from the Kennedy administration, were laughably inept.

Interestingly enough, the author of that book primarily deflects blame from the CIA to the JFK admin and to Robert Kennedy (which may be accurate to a degree).

For other sources of our operations against Cuba, search out:
Church Committee records from 1976
Operation Mongoose
Operation Northwoods

This stuff is all pretty well documented. We don't, however, have much (if any) evidence of Cuban espionage or sabotage efforts in the U.S. (outside of shipping a bunch of criminals over the early 80's).

[Bengalzona]

(03-24-2016, 05:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think Cuba was treated a little differently than other dictatorship around the world we partner with because there are so many Cuban refugees here in the United States.  It is easy for our President to to be seen as buddy buddy with the oppressive House of Saud because there are not hundreds of thousands of refugees from Saudi Arabia here telling first hand stories of their family members being imprisoned and killed just for political reasons.

True. The Cuban exiles/refugees (primarily in Florida) have had far more political influence over the years than their numbers would generally warrant.

And I don't want to make Cuba sound like some paradise wrongly accused of misdeeds. They suck to high hell. They limit their own peoples rights and have sent tens of thousands of troops to Angola over the years to support the communist guerillas there. They just haven't been trying to pick a fight with us over the years (which is a wise choice for them).

[Rotobeast]

(03-24-2016, 05:21 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: You ever wonder what they did to us to make us so mad at them?

It's simple.

They decided to be communists and made friends with the Soviet Union.



That's pretty much it. Right?

Sure, they did let the Soviets move some short-range nuclear missiles there in the early 60's. But why did Soviets want to do that? Because we were already doing the same thing to them by stationing short-range nukes in Turkey, their underbelly. It was a tit-for-tat. And the ultimate deal that removed the missiles from Cuba was that we would remove ours from Turkey, which we did.

So, the Soviet Union has been deceased for almost a quarter of a century now. Yet... we are still mad at them. They are commies. And yet, we are buddies with China. They are commies too, right?


No. Our problems with Cuba aren't about them being commies or their former friendship with the Soviets. Our problem with the Cubans is pride. They embarrassed us, in our opinion. They did it over and over again. Sort of like the Road Runner and Wiley Coyote. Are you guys aware of how many attempts the CIA made to embarrass or even assassinate Fidel Castro? Declassified files show that they tried over a dozen times. And some of the attempts were just ignorant. An example: they tried to have Nair put in his skin diving suit to burn off his beard and embarrass him when he had to speak in front of his people on TV beardless. Yes, we actually tried to do that. Worse yet, we failed. In fact, we failed at every attempt.

And that, in a nutshell, is what we hold against the Cubans. It wasn't that they succeeded. It was that we failed, over and over again. And we had too much pride to accept that we failed, just as we had too much pride to admit that a lot of the stupid shit the CIA tried was... well, stupid shit.

And... we have politicians still today who want us to ignore the stupid shit that we did and continue to ignore Cuba as if they don't exist. Why? Because they still cannot face that we did ignorant shit. That's what pride will get you.

Don't forget, the mob was none too happy about losing their casinos.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-24-2016, 06:02 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Can I please get a Cuban cigar, legally?  Is that too much to ask?  How about some absinthe to sip it down with?

If they try to supply this market with cigars, I wouldn't come near one. They don't have anywhere near the capacity. You'll have to head up to Canada and pay insane prices. Or take your chances on the internet. I haven't bought any Cuban cigars since I got a little live letter from the Treasury Dept.

[GMDino]

(03-24-2016, 08:42 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Don't forget, the mob was none too happy about losing their casinos.

[*jason*]

Batista was also one of "our bastards" too.  American playboys loved his island.  The people of Cuba weren't so keen on him.  When Castro overthrew him, he actually flew to the US, and just showed up at the White House.  He was offended by the way he was received.  Shortly after that he drifted closer and closer to the USSR.  The US always sent him rent checks for Gitmo.  He never cashed them.


Fun fact (that may not be true anymore)...  Cubans have a higher life expectancy, higher literacy rate, and a lower infant mortality rate than Americans do.  That may have changed over the last 20 years or so, but I found that amazing in college.

[*jason*]

(03-24-2016, 06:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it had more to due with executions and the government taking over private lands by force if required.

I think the real question is what did we do to make them so mad at us. After the Soviet collapse we tried to offer aid and they refused. I never saw us a "being mad" at Cuba. I've always seen it as us not forcing them to be our friends.

I'd say a 5 plus decade embargo is "being mad" at Cuba.

[*jason*]

(03-24-2016, 05:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fifty years of embargoes have failed, but maybe after they get used to the extra income we can threaten to take it back away.

They were not missing something because they had forgottenwhat it was like to have it.

They never had it.