DEs drafted during Marvin's tenure

[Burma]

Here’s a quick breakdown of the DEs that Marvin has drafted during his tenure here.  I got interested in this when I was reviewing the DE prospects in this draft.  Why does the team have a fetish for 6’6” 280lbs DEs and pass over smaller DEs that have had great college production.  Does the “System” require these lanky DEs? Whose “system” is it?

In Marvin’s first 4 drafts he selected 5 DEs all near the conventional 6’3” 275lb range. After that the smallest DE drafted was 6’5”.  What brought about this change?  There were a couple of things that came up when I was looking into this.

In 2004 Ben Roethlisberger came into the league. Did the Bengals start drafting large DEs capable of bringing down Ben at the expense of smaller, better pass rushers?  

In 2005 Paul Guenther came on as the Bengals LB coach.  Was part of his “philosophy” as a LB coach getting these long DE that could get into the passing lanes to help out a linebacker core that had, and has, historically struggled in coverage? Since Guenther has been here only 1 DE under 6’5” has been drafted.

Regardless of what the reason is, it is clear that the Bengals struggle mightily to draft productive DEs.  Perhaps they need to invest in a position specific draft advisor, someone with a much better eye for pass rushers.

2003:
7th (259) Elton Patterson, 6’2” 270lbs. Central Florida.  2 seasons, 2 games played, 0 sacks, 1 tackle

2004:
4th (117) Robert Geathers, 6’3” 275lbs.  Georgia.  11 seasons, 152 games played, 34 sacks, 183 tackles,

2005:
1st (17) David Pollack, 6’2” 255lbs.  Georgia. 2 seasons, 16 games played, 4.5 sacks, 22 tackles
7th (233) Jonathan Fanene, 6’4” 285lbs.  Utah. 7 seasons, 71 games played, 13.5 sacks, 66 tackles

2006
3rd (91) Frostee Rucker, 6’3” 280lbs.  USC.  5 seasons, 53 games played, 7 sacks, 62 tackles

2007
None

2008
7th (244) Angelo Craig, 6’5” 245lbs. Cincinnati.  No games played.  No Stats.


2009
3rd (90) Michael Johnson, 6’7” 280lbs.  Georgia Tech.  7 seasons, 111 games played, 35 sacks, 195 tackles

2010
2nd (54) Carlos Dunlap, 6’6” 280lbs.  Florida.  7 seasons, 102 games played, 57 sacks, 214 tackles

2011
None

2012
None

2013
2nd (53) Margus Hunt, 6’8” 275lbs.  SMU.   4 seasons, 44 games played. 1.5 sacks 14 tackles

2014
3rd (88) Will Clarke, 6’6” 271lbs.  West Virginia. 3 seasons, 35 games played. 4.5 sacks, 15 tackles

2015
None

2016
None


Bonus fun fact for making it this far!

Carlos Dunlap:  102 games played, 57 sacks.  .56 sacks per game
All 9 other DEs drafted since 2003: 484 games played, 100 sacks.  .21 sacks per game

[BengalChris]

2nd (53) Margus Hunt, 6’8” 275lbs. SMU. 4 seasons, 44 games played. 1.5 sacks 14 tackles

I still do not understand this pick. Not only do we need someone who can take over for Michael Johnson soon we also need to replace the crappy backups we have been trotting out.

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 02:31 AM)BengalChris Wrote: 2nd (53) Margus Hunt, 6’8” 275lbs.  SMU.   4 seasons, 44 games played. 1.5 sacks 14 tackles

I still do not understand this pick. Not only do we need someone who can take over for Michael Johnson soon we also need to replace the crappy backups we have been trotting out.

It's made worse by the fact that they ignored the DE for the 2 years prior to selecting Hunt. The cupboard was already slim to bare. And they compounded the mistake by not taking any DE in 2015 and 2016 after it was clear Hunt was a raging bust. You can't take essentially 5 out of 6 years off from working to improve your DEs.  It is ridiculous. 

[grampahol]

I don't expect any wholesale changes to the front 4 at all, but would like to see more and better youth come in.  They've played well as a defense, much better than really anyone expected, but they've gotten long in the tooth. Their 'fisher price' defense has changed very little since 2010 and in football and in dog years that's a long time. 

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 03:43 AM)grampahol Wrote: I don't expect any wholesale changes to the front 4 at all, but would like to see more and better youth come in.  They've played well as a defense, much better than really anyone expected, but they've gotten long in the tooth. Their 'fisher price' defense has changed very little since 2010 and in football and in dog years that's a long time. 

Our Fisher Price package is old enough for a midlife crisis now. 

[grampahol]

(01-20-2017, 04:10 AM)Burma Wrote: Our Fisher Price package is old enough for a midlife crisis now. 

That's 210 in doggie years..  Maybe I'll retire my username and let them have it.. The Grampahol package.. 
Now THAT would strike fear into opposing teams!  

[*SHRacerX*]

We still have a few of those "mold" of DE on the team...Hunt (FA) and Clarke. I think Pollak was the one piece I was most excited about...that double-spin move like the Tazmanian Devil. It is too bad he held out so long (thank you rookie wage scale) and was fat when he showed up. He was, for some time, the last Bengal to get a sack in a playoff game...and it was piggy.

I think there were some telltale quotes from Paulie G about a DE that doesn't need to be that same tall guy that can rotate inside, but if he can rush the passer than he can rush the passer. There will almost certainly be a RDE that is more of a speed threat than another long, plodding DE that can take advantage of the attention paid to Dunlap and Geno.

[Au165]

I think Clarke is actually a capable player. I'd like to see him get starting snaps next year. I would still like to add another end, but don't think it needs to be a guy taking a majority of snaps day 1. We could work him in as a situational rusher.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-20-2017, 02:31 AM)BengalChris Wrote: 2nd (53) Margus Hunt, 6’8” 275lbs.  SMU.   4 seasons, 44 games played. 1.5 sacks 14 tackles

I still do not understand this pick. Not only do we need someone who can take over for Michael Johnson soon we also need to replace the crappy backups we have been trotting out.

It was a terrible pick at the time and I said so because he wasn't a 21/22 year old kid. He was essentially the same age as MJ.

They drafted him because they knew they couldn't sign Dunlap AND MJ. He's about the same age as MJ and hasn't developed.

Like you said, we now need a starter and 1 or 2 backups. Will Clark may be a decent backup.

[Benton]

interesting about the height issue. I never realized.

off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of is the similar direction on line of drafting the tallest, biggest wingspan guys.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-20-2017, 12:36 AM)Burma Wrote: Here’s a quick breakdown of the DEs that Marvin has drafted during his tenure here.  I got interested in this when I was reviewing the DE prospects in this draft.  Why does the team have a fetish for 6’6” 280lbs DEs and pass over smaller DEs that have had great college production.  Does the “System” require these lanky DEs? Whose “system” is it?

In Marvin’s first 4 drafts he selected 5 DEs all near the conventional 6’3” 275lb range. After that the smallest DE drafted was 6’5”.  What brought about this change?  There were a couple of things that came up when I was looking into this.

In 2004 Ben Roethlisberger came into the league. Did the Bengals start drafting large DEs capable of bringing down Ben at the expense of smaller, better pass rushers?  

In 2005 Paul Guenther came on as the Bengals LB coach.  Was part of his “philosophy” as a LB coach getting these long DE that could get into the passing lanes to help out a linebacker core that had, and has, historically struggled in coverage? Since Guenther has been here only 1 DE under 6’5” has been drafted.

Regardless of what the reason is, it is clear that the Bengals struggle mightily to draft productive DEs.  Perhaps they need to invest in a position specific draft advisor, someone with a much better eye for pass rushers.

2003:
7th (259) Elton Patterson, 6’2” 270lbs. Central Florida.  2 seasons, 2 games played, 0 sacks, 1 tackle

2004:
4th (117) Robert Geathers, 6’3” 275lbs.  Georgia.  11 seasons, 152 games played, 34 sacks, 183 tackles,

2005:
1st (17) David Pollack, 6’2” 255lbs.  Georgia. 2 seasons, 16 games played, 4.5 sacks, 22 tackles
7th (233) Jonathan Fanene, 6’4” 285lbs.  Utah. 7 seasons, 71 games played, 13.5 sacks, 66 tackles

2006
3rd (91) Frostee Rucker, 6’3” 280lbs.  USC.  5 seasons, 53 games played, 7 sacks, 62 tackles

2007
None

2008
7th (244) Angelo Craig, 6’5” 245lbs. Cincinnati.  No games played.  No Stats.


2009
3rd (90) Michael Johnson, 6’7” 280lbs.  Georgia Tech.  7 seasons, 111 games played, 35 sacks, 195 tackles

2010
2nd (54) Carlos Dunlap, 6’6” 280lbs.  Florida.  7 seasons, 102 games played, 57 sacks, 214 tackles

2011
None

2012
None

2013
2nd (53) Margus Hunt, 6’8” 275lbs.  SMU.   4 seasons, 44 games played. 1.5 sacks 14 tackles

2014
3rd (88) Will Clarke, 6’6” 271lbs.  West Virginia. 3 seasons, 35 games played. 4.5 sacks, 15 tackles

2015
None

2016
None


Bonus fun fact for making it this far!

Carlos Dunlap:  102 games played, 57 sacks.  .56 sacks per game
All 9 other DEs drafted since 2003: 484 games played, 100 sacks.  .21 sacks per game

Carlos Dunlap is the only one out of that whole list that has had multiple seasons of 7+ sacks. MJ and Geathers both had a single season of double digit sacks, but 6.0 or less every other season. They had some success with Rucker and Fanene (and even Gilberry as a FA), but that was primarily from the DT position on passing downs. The Bengals need a pass rusher that can get 7+ sacks a season on a consistent basis, and do it primarily from the RDE position. They aren't going to get that from picking players that are projects or are primarily run stoppers. Go for an elite pass rush presence for once.

[THE PISTONS]

Height is good to bat down passes. Our line does tend to bat down a decent amount.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-20-2017, 12:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Height is good to bat down passes. Our line does tend to bat down a decent amount.

Meh. I'd prefer more sacks over batted basses because the clock keeps running and the LOS moves further back. But if we're factoring in PDs, I view a good DE as someone who reaches double digits consistently for sacks + PDs. Carlos Dunlap had 8.0 sacks and 15 PDs this season. That's pretty damn good. No one else on the DL reached double digits for combined sacks + PDs.

So basically my desire for a DE to be good is either:
A) 7+ sacks in a season
or
B) 10+ (sacks+PDs) in a season

[J24]

The only reason why we drafted Clark and Hunt was to replace MJ. Also we signed Gilberry during that time and drafted Hardison as well neither one of those guys are over 6-4.

[Bilbo Saggins]

I think that the general idea with drafting the big guys is that a guy who is 6'6" and can move at 280+ has a higher upside than a guy who is built like Robert Mathis but does not have Robert Mathis type skills. That's an OK mindset to have IMO, unless you miss out on Mathis type of players because you write them off before looking at them. 

The thing that really stands out to me with this analysis is just how few DEs they have drafted high. It was the same way with DTs too, and I don't really understand it. 

[THE PISTONS]

We're built to compete in the AFC North from 10 years ago when Bettis played.

We have big DE's and huge linebackers that can't really run. Defense now is about speed and ability to cover passes.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-20-2017, 05:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We're built to compete in the AFC North from 10 years ago when Bettis played.

We have big DE's and huge linebackers that can't really run. Defense now is about speed and ability to cover passes.

Exactly. But it makes sense. Lewis came from that era.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-20-2017, 01:11 PM)J24 Wrote: The only reason why we drafted Clark and Hunt was to replace MJ. Also we signed Gilberry during that time and drafted Hardison as well neither one of those guys are over 6-4.

And that is why the Bengals are in the situation they are for pass rushers. Hunt was a complete bust. Clarke is still developing but needs to show more. MJ's play has declined the past 2-3 years. Hardison is more of a DT than DE. He was labeled as a better fit as a DT in a 4-3 coming out of college and the team has him labeled as a DT on their site. He's never going to be a true edge rusher. Gilberry also was far more successful rushing from the inside than the edge.

[Socal Bengals fan]

We need a speed rusher in the worst ways. These 606 pass rushers are not cutting it. Struck gold with Dunlap. He was pretty much a can't miss. Just a,monster at Florida

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 01:11 PM)J24 Wrote: The only reason why we drafted Clark and Hunt was to replace MJ. Also we signed Gilberry during that time and drafted Hardison as well neither one of those guys are over 6-4.

Ochocincos touched on it, but i did not include Gilberry in this list since he wasn't drafted by the Bengals.  Also every scouting service I can recall (and jsut did a quick search as well) showed that Hardison was listed as a DT not DE.  The Bengals website lists him as a DT in it's draft history, so I did not include him in this list. 

(01-20-2017, 05:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We're built to compete in the AFC North from 10 years ago when Bettis played.

We have big DE's and huge linebackers that can't really run. Defense now is about speed and ability to cover passes.

Which is why I was getting frustrated as I reviewed the Bengals draft history at DE.  They keep passing over productive 6'3, 6'4 guys in search of their sack Giraffe.