Death Penalty

[SunsetBengal]

(09-04-2015, 09:28 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Actually, 1% of our nation has deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq to do what you made light of. I'm a part of the 1%. I've got a case of beer says you're a part of the other 99%.

You would be correct.  However, I was 32 with a family on 911.  I thought seriously of enlisting, that very day.

Just because I didn't go over and serve, does not mean that I don't have the utmost respect for those who have.  What I have a problem with, is the way the government sent all of our forces over there, but never let them finish the task, particularly our current regime.  What has Obama's withdrawl of US forces led to?  The rise of ISIS, who executes anyone and everyone that does not conform to their ideals.  So, when someone here in the USA, wants to cry about death penalty here in this Nation, I really think that they don't know how good they actually have it.

[Benton]

(09-05-2015, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You would be correct.  However, I was 32 with a family on 911.  I thought seriously of enlisting, that very day.

Just because I didn't go over and serve, does not mean that I don't have the utmost respect for those who have.  What I have a problem with, is the way the government sent all of our forces over there, but never let them finish the task, particularly our current regime.  What has Obama's withdrawl of US forces led to?  The rise of ISIS, who executes anyone and everyone that does not conform to their ideals.  So, when someone here in the USA, wants to cry about death penalty here in this Nation, I really think that they don't know how good they actually have it.

Huh? The previous "regime" started a boots on the ground war, declared victory and then spent several years.... I don't know what. Supposedly there was already a victory, so I don't know why there were any troops still there when this "regime" took over.

As far as the rest of it, the withdrawal had nothing to do with ISIS. Go back a few decades to when we were arming most of the region under Reagan and agreeing to trade protection for oil to the Saudis. That's got nothing to do with Obama, it just happened to come to a head a decade before he took office. 

You don't like democrats. That's ok. Or you don't like Obama. That's ok, too. But blaming him for Middle East issues that started before the 70s and were mishandled for profit by the previous administration (because let's face it, Haliburton and a lot of Bush's buds made a shit ton of money off the current war) on Obama is silly.

And it's got zero to do with the death penalty. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-06-2015, 12:11 AM)Benton Wrote:

Huh? The previous "regime" started a boots on the ground war, declared victory and then spent several years.... I don't know what. Supposedly there was already a victory, so I don't know why there were any troops still there when this "regime" took over.

As far as the rest of it, the withdrawal had nothing to do with ISIS. Go back a few decades to when we were arming most of the region under Reagan and agreeing to trade protection for oil to the Saudis. That's got nothing to do with Obama, it just happened to come to a head a decade before he took office. 

You don't like democrats. That's ok. Or you don't like Obama. That's ok, too. But blaming him for Middle East issues that started before the 70s and were mishandled for profit by the previous administration (because let's face it, Haliburton and a lot of Bush's buds made a shit ton of money off the current war) on Obama is silly.

And it's got zero to do with the death penalty. 

Fair enough, Joe.  I realize that those people have been warring with themselves for seemingly eternity.  Our interests are basically economically based (energy dependence, world market, etc.).  Be that as it may, those people declared war on the US, want to end Western Civilization as an entity, and won't quit until they do.  Now, our current regime thinks they can "control" Iran's progress toward nuclear capability?  We have sympathy in the US for their "point of view"?  And yet, some are so blind to the bigger picture that all they want to complain about is how our own government is so unjust?  I don't know man, maybe the OP of this thread would be happier with letting the convicts free to commit more atrocity.  Sure, every system makes errors, that is the human factor.  However, if one of his friends, neighbors, or family members were a victim, his point of view may be different.

And to be clear, I mean no malice toward the OP of this thread.  I'm just a middle aged guy that is getting fed up with the pop culture's enthusiasm for lawlessness.

[*bfine32*]

(09-04-2015, 10:44 PM)Benton Wrote: But I've never gotten over the irony of so many people banging their chests about this being a Christian nation — about how bad gay marriage and abortion and teaching evolution are

(09-06-2015, 12:11 AM)Benton Wrote:  And it's got zero to do with the death penalty. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-05-2015, 10:54 PM)Blutarsky Wrote: Just by having to explain away the many charges of violating religious conscience points to the fact that there has been a heightened attack on religious conscience, wouldn't you agree?
Your explanations only means the perps knew they couldn't get away with it.
Have fun with these...
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/other-examples-of-attacks-on-religious-conscience-and-free-exercise

You won't have to explain away this one...its been explained: Drawing of a crucifix deemed "violent" and child needs to undergo psychiatric evaluation. :crazy:
http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20091215/NEWS/312159872/?Start=2

The first case in your first link was a college accrediting board asking a school to explain why their honor code of conduct for staff and students tells them they cannot engage in gay relationships...

The second was the fire chief who inappropriately handed out his book about his homophobic and religious views to his employees...

The third was a ban on judges being a part of groups that actively discriminate. The fact that the Boy Scouts are somewhat religious was irrelevant...

The fourth was a college requiring all student groups to accept all students...

the fifth was a doctor being required to provide services to gay couples after they refused to... really??

I stopped at this point because this was just stupid.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-06-2015, 12:42 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The first case in your first link was a college accrediting board asking a school to explain why their honor code of conduct for staff and students tells them they cannot engage in gay relationships...

The second was the fire chief who inappropriately handed out his book about his homophobic and religious views to his employees...

The third was a ban on judges being a part of groups that actively discriminate. The fact that the Boy Scouts are somewhat religious was irrelevant...

The fourth was a college requiring all student groups to accept all students...

the fifth was a doctor being required to provide services to gay couples after they refused to... really??

I stopped at this point because this was just stupid.

As I accurately said to bfine from the start, when these guys talk about people attacking their "religious freedom", they typically mean "the freedom to discriminate in the name of religion".

[fredtoast]

(09-05-2015, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  What I have a problem with, is the way the government sent all of our forces over there, but never let them finish the task,

What task was that exactly and how would we have achieved it?

What would have had to happen before you would have been satisfied that we had finished the task?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-05-2015, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You would be correct.  However, I was 32 with a family on 911.  I thought seriously of enlisting, that very day.

I was 34 with a family.  What's your point?  You were too busy taking care of your own interests to serve your country?  Yeah, I got that.  That's one of the problems I have with most conservatives like yourself.  You're good at bitching, but you don't actually do anything.

However, in 2001, I had been in the Army ten years because it didn't take a national tragedy for me to even consider, but ultimately reject, serving my country.

Quote:Just because I didn't go over and serve, does not mean that I don't have the utmost respect for those who have.  What I have a problem with, is the way the government sent all of our forces over there, but never let them finish the task, particularly our current regime.  What has Obama's withdrawl of US forces led to?  The rise of ISIS, who executes anyone and everyone that does not conform to their ideals.  So, when someone here in the USA, wants to cry about death penalty here in this Nation, I really think that they don't know how good they actually have it.

This is another problem I have with conservatives like yourself.  You're completely full of shit.  The Bush administration fabricated the war with Iraq over a god damn lie.  And how many American lives have been lost because of it?  One is too damn many.  It took less than 18 days after the initial invasion for them to tell us we could put away our NBC equipment because it wasn't needed.  In other words, the reason we invaded was no longer a concern in less than three weeks.  Obama's withdrawal?  Are you shitting me?  The withdrawal was already negotiated by the Bush administration.  If people give credit to Obama, conservatives are quick to point out Bush negotiated the withdrawal.  If something goes wrong, conservatives blame Obama for the withdrawal.  It's comical.  There wasn't any Al-Qaeda in Iraq until after we invaded.  We created the Al-Qaeda problem in Iraq.  Groups like ISIS are going to happen regardless of who is president.  It is the nature of that region.  Our government propped up Saddam to begin with and we created a power vacuum when we destroyed the regime we helped create.  Power vacuums need to be filled.  You're probably one of the conservatives that ***** about Obama using drones and our military involvement in Syria.  Do you remember McChrystal?  Do you know what he got to finish the task in Afghanistan?  Exactly what he requested.  And define what our task is?  That's part of the problem.  Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld didn't have any sort of strategic plan once we removed Saddam.  I was there.  I know.  Complete leadership failure on their part.  You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?  Well, once the eggs are broken you can't get them back in their shells, either.  

I get the OP's intent.  I'll give you an analogy based upon another problem the Bush administration created.  Every terrorist captured and detained at Guantanamo has been denied due process.  (Even though the military lawyers have sued for their right to due process.)  Many have been held indefinitely without charges because the Bush administration declared they weren't legal combatants and thus weren't entitled to protection under the conventions that govern modern warfare.  There is little to no chance our service members will be treated IAW these conventions if captured, but if we don't follow our own damn rules and afford that treatment to their prisoners then we have effectively eliminated that "little" chance our service members will be treated how we expect them to be treated.  In otherwords, two wrongs don't make a right.

What ISIS does doesn't have two shits to do with capital punishment in America.  The morality of capital punishment in America is independent of ISIS.  We decide what is right and wrong based upon our morals, not based upon what ISIS does.

I once had to go 4 months without a shower.  You don't need to tell me American citizens don't know how good they have it because you're one of those people.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

I'm sure you had a point combining these two quotes into one post.  I commend you for your effective use of camouflage because I'll be damned if I can find your point. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-05-2015, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You would be correct.  However, I was 32 with a family on 911.  I thought seriously of enlisting, that very day.

Just because I didn't go over and serve, does not mean that I don't have the utmost respect for those who have.  What I have a problem with, is the way the government sent all of our forces over there, but never let them finish the task, particularly our current regime.  What has Obama's withdrawl of US forces led to?  The rise of ISIS, who executes anyone and everyone that does not conform to their ideals.  So, when someone here in the USA, wants to cry about death penalty here in this Nation, I really think that they don't know how good they actually have it.

One of my points of criticism against Obama has been the fact that he tried to get troops to remain in Iraq longer than the Bush timetable for withdrawal. Believe it or not, troops began to leave Iraq based on deals Bush made with their government. Some have suggested Obama didn't try hard enough, but you have to put as much, if not more, blame on Bush for those dates. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-06-2015, 01:04 AM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: As I accurately said to bfine from the start, when these guys talk about people attacking their "religious freedom", they typically mean "the freedom to discriminate in the name of religion".

"The freedom to force others to pay for my religion"

"The freedom to have a government body officially sanction only my religion"

"The freedom to tell others they'll lose their jobs if they're gay"

[fredtoast]

(09-06-2015, 11:43 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: One of my points of criticism against Obama has been the fact that he tried to get troops to remain in Iraq longer than the Bush timetable for withdrawal. Believe it or not, troops began to leave Iraq based on deals Bush made with their government. Some have suggested Obama didn't try hard enough, but you have to put as much, if not more, blame on Bush for those dates. 

Iraq wanted out troops out of there more than anyone.

[BmorePat87]

(09-06-2015, 11:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Iraq wanted out troops out of there more than anyone.

Hence why Obama and Panetta failed in keeping them in Iraq longer than Bush's agreed upon exit.

[Beaker]

Uh...death penalty anyone?

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-06-2015, 12:30 PM)Beaker Wrote: Uh...death penalty anyone?