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(06-22-2024, 01:15 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't want to upset or offend anyone of the Catholic faith. But as a Christian, there are some things about the faith I disagree with, so I'll just leave that at that.
My comments about the Catholic faith were ironic. I don't think any order of the Commandments is better than another.
But a Protestant order is certainly endorsing Protestantism as the "right" version.
(06-22-2024, 01:15 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Dr. Carson is a breath of fresh air. I can't begin to explain the admiration I have for this dude. Don't dislike him for his Christian values. If you look beyond your distaste of religion in politics, or religion period, he has strong values as a human being and has dedicated his life to helping people.
Dr. Carson thinks the Pyramids of Egypt were built by Joseph to store grain. I've been in one. Impossible.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/presidential-candidate-ben-carson-stands-belief-pyramids-built-store-grain
(06-22-2024, 01:15 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't disagree in a sense because of the message. I do agree with most that religion in schools & government is not a good fit. I think America is desperately in need of finding our way back to the moral ground. I'm sure you'll find an argument in that statement, and rightfully so. What I think is good doesn't apply to all.
But we both know he's not. His supporters (those that I know) couldn't give two sheets about religion. They want to prosper, raise their children, and enjoy life. They believe in working hard and rewarding themselves and family with their labor. They don't work to pay for other people's degrees. They don't work to pay for illegal immigrants to live a better life than them in some 5-star hotel in Manhattan with free meals and room service, etc, etc.
I see no reason to believe Trump is a practicing Christian or knows anything about the Bible.
But he does see how religion can win him votes. And he has delivered for the Christian right. He is a big part of the reason they are now in position to impose more of their views on the nation. (Check out the Project 2025 thread.) That will be true in foreign policy as well. As theologian Lance Wallnau put it--Trump is the Chaos candidate," "God's wrecking ball." https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/lance-wallnau-why-trump-gods-chaos-candidate-and-wrecking-ball.
Some of Trump's supporters don't give "two sheets" about religion. E.g., the Billionaires whose taxes he has promised to cut. Other supporters are more stoked by grievance, and false stories of immigrants in $395 a night hotel rooms. (That's why I asked why the Commandments and not the Beatitudes? Why OT and not NT morality in the classroom?) Stoking grievance and poison-in-the-nation's-blood style xenophobia are hardly the way to a higher moral ground. That is the pathway to power of all authoritarian populists, and I can think of no instance where that ever turned out well.
I believe you when you say most Trump supporters you know aren't especially religious, but I also believe polls that show he has locked down the Evangelical vote. I also believe that myriad pastors who tell their congregations that Trump is accomplishing God's will believe what they are saying. Trump has been the primary conduit through which (to continue the blood metaphor) Christian nationalism has entered the national bloodstream, not only through court appointments but also through national politicians who embrace it, e.g. in the House from MTG to the Speaker.
The Louisiana law is not about some general return to morality, but another battle in the war to impose Christian "dominion" on the nation. They are also hiring chaplains for schools and forbidding discussion of sexual orientation. The governor who signed the bill says he wants children to "see God's law" on the wall. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-law-is-christian-nationalism.html
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(06-22-2024, 01:15 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't want to upset or offend anyone of the Catholic faith. But as a Christian, there are some things about the faith I disagree with, so I'll just leave that at that.
You don't want to offend Catholics except when you imply they aren't Christian.
You disagree with the faith as a PROTESTANT.
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(06-22-2024, 07:38 PM)pally Wrote: You don't want to offend Catholics except when you imply they aren't Christian.
You disagree with the faith as a PROTESTANT.
Standard stuff I mean, doesn't the USA exist because a bunch of Christians were more willing to brave what was a super long and dangerous oceanic voyage than hang around with other Christians?
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(06-22-2024, 07:38 PM)pally Wrote: You don't want to offend Catholics except when you imply they aren't Christian.
You disagree with the faith as a PROTESTANT.
There are many species of Catholics. I didn't say they aren't Christian. Some Catholic churches align well with my beliefs, much like Christianity. So please stop the eggs in one basket routine. It's old.
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(06-22-2024, 08:19 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: There are many species of Catholics. I didn't say they aren't Christian. Some Catholic churches align well with my beliefs, much like Christianity. So please stop the eggs in one basket routine. It's old.
Then why say "as a Christian" there are things you disagree with the faith about? Catholics are undeniably Christian. You may disagree with tenets of Catholicism but the faith in Jesus shouldn't be one of them. Your disagreement stems from your Protestantism
Disregarding Catholics as Christians is fairly common among Evangelicals. I've never heard Catholics claim that Evangelicals aren't Christian just because they have different ways of believing
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(06-22-2024, 09:58 PM)pally Wrote: Then why say "as a Christian" there are things you disagree with the faith about? Catholics are undeniably Christian. You may disagree with tenets of Catholicism but the faith in Jesus shouldn't be one of them. Your disagreement stems from your Protestantism
Disregarding Catholics as Christians is fairly common among Evangelicals. I've never heard Catholics claim that Evangelicals aren't Christian just because they have different ways of believing
Hilarious, as the Catholic wing of the religious right is by far the most serious and effective for the greater party.. The current SCOTUS illustrates my point beyond dispute. The evangelical carnival barkers talk all of the shit. The Jesuit-educated lawyers and judges do the real work.
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(06-22-2024, 09:58 PM)pally Wrote: Then why say "as a Christian" there are things you disagree with the faith about? Catholics are undeniably Christian. You may disagree with tenets of Catholicism but the faith in Jesus shouldn't be one of them. Your disagreement stems from your Protestantism
Disregarding Catholics as Christians is fairly common among Evangelicals. I've never heard Catholics claim that Evangelicals aren't Christian just because they have different ways of believing
It is her crazy faction...
Looney by most...
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(06-22-2024, 10:46 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: It is her crazy faction...
Looney by most...
What is looney or crazy about saying Catholics are Christian and it is insulting to say they aren't?
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I don't understand how this can even be a debate. Public schools should be exempt from all religion as they should be exempt from all ideological symbols and flags as well.
It shouldn't be more complicated than that.
“Don't give up. Don't ever give up.” - Jimmy V
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(06-22-2024, 11:23 PM)pally Wrote: What is looney or crazy about saying Catholics are Christian and it is insulting to say they aren't?
I am neither, just following the same observation across the board.
All groups have their extremes, religion is not exempt.
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On a surprising related note, the ultra-right-wing Oklahoma State Supreme Court has ruled that the state violated the 1st amendment when it certified a Catholic charter school as part of the public school system
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(06-25-2024, 04:29 PM)pally Wrote: On a surprising related note, the ultra-right-wing Oklahoma State Supreme Court has ruled that the state violated the 1st amendment when it certified a Catholic charter school as part of the public school system
It's always refreshing to see a court simply apply the law instead of purposely contorting it to reach an outcome that favors religion.
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Catholics are the originals. The rest of y’all just made your own shit up. 
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
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(06-25-2024, 04:54 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It's always refreshing to see a court simply apply the law instead of purposely contorting it to reach an outcome that favors religion.
Sadly, the state's superintendent of schools is planning to appeal in federal court
His new ploy is to make the bible a required textbook in every classroom
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