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Democrats Want Change
#41
(07-19-2017, 04:36 PM)Dill Wrote: Could you perhaps cite a national or state party platform that supports you claim that Democrats seek "equal outcomes"?

I think a lot of the misconceptions surrounding the idea that the left looks for equal outcomes result from the discussions about the wealth and income gaps. Here is a good article from The Atlantic on this issue form 2015: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/what-matters-inequality-or-opportuniy/393272/

In the sake of transparency, the authors are with a progressive think tank on budget issues. They know what they are talking about but there are of course going to be different opinions. They just lay out the argument well, in my opinion.

And Dill, this is more of a general response for everyone, not just for you. LOL
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#42
(07-17-2017, 02:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Two people working is a big part of what caused wages to stagnate because you essentially doubled your workforce without truly doubling your work demand. Go hire someone younger and cheaper, because there's so many of them now you can replace at will. Why give someone 20 years worth of raises when you can lay them off and hire a kid with a college degree, who is swimming in debt, and willing to work for much less?  . . . .

The market will adapt to what people are capable and willing to pay. The whole demand angle of the market. Two people working being the common thing made it so people could afford to spend more money on things, so things in turn became more expensive because the folks selling things know you can afford it. Kayne West sold out instantly on $120 plain white t-shirts a couple years back. People will sell things for what they think they can get you to pay.

It becomes a bigger problem as two parent families become less and less of a common thing, because our market has now evolved around being primarily for two working parents... so a one parent family is now often in poverty. Not saying it's right, but I do believe it's traced back to it.

The cause and effect relation between working parents and the economy that you posit seems to me the reverse of what has actually occurred, Leonard.

When I was young, most families had one wage or salary earning parent. Wives began going into the workforce, especially in the '70s, to make ends meet, in part because of rising inflation, rent and real estate prices.  Also, one parent was generally the primary earner; the second parent got a part-time or a lesser paying job. So parents were rarely adding jobs to the same sector of the economy. Husbands and wives were rarelty competing in the same market, so to speak. Then in places like Ohio and Michigan and PA, as steel and manufacturing jobs left the country, those primary earners then also had to scrounge for lesser paying jobs.  Further, the loss of union jobs, and the scaling back of unions, has dropped pressure on wages across many non-union jobs as well. This is in part a result of policy, and policy is a result of whom people elect to run their states and country.

So I would reverse your cause/effect relation. I would say labor--especially wage labor--has adapted to a changing job-market and what people were willing to pay. And that is what has drawn so many women into the job market, many of whom would prefer to remain home. Part of the change has been that manufacturing jobs have decreased in number. Part has been that white-collar jobs, requiring a college degree, have increased as the economy has turned to services and knowledge/information. Since my teen years back in the 60s, people with college degrees have generally had a better chance of adapting.

Finally, part of the change which has occurred over the last four decades is that the relation of employer to worker has been greatly altered by management policy in some sectors of the economy. More people are hired part-time to save employers the cost of paying insurance and benefits. People can be hired as needed and fired as needed. The result is that people may be working harder and producing more value for less pay. The extra value created by the worker, however, is still captured by the employer. One reason for the rising wage gap.
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#43
(07-19-2017, 04:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think a lot of the misconceptions surrounding the idea that the left looks for equal outcomes result from the discussions about the wealth and income gaps. Here is a good article from The Atlantic on this issue form 2015: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/what-matters-inequality-or-opportuniy/393272/

In the sake of transparency, the authors are with a progressive think tank on budget issues. They know what they are talking about but there are of course going to be different opinions. They just lay out the argument well, in my opinion.

And Dill, this is more of a general response for everyone, not just for you. LOL

It is a good article. What it does is link economic inequality to inequality of opportunity. Just to be clear, the authors are still not arguing for "equality of outcomes" in the sense our Republican friends would have it.

An additional point--the "equality of outcomes" goal imputed to Dems and "far leftists" is less an analytic concept for economic/political analysis than a meme that circulates as "fact" in right wing discourse.  I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard someone explaining how you can't make people's abilities equal--usually by someone who would benefit from the greater economic opportunity he has been led to argue against.
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#44
(07-19-2017, 05:31 PM)Dill Wrote: It is a good article. What it does is link economic inequality to inequality of opportunity. Just to be clear, the authors are still not arguing for "equality of outcomes" in the sense our Republican friends would have it.

An additional point--the "equality of outcomes" goal imputed to Dems and "far leftists" is less an analytic concept for economic/political analysis than a meme that circulates as "fact" in right wing discourse.  I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard someone explaining how you can't make people's abilities equal--usually by someone who would benefit from the greater economic opportunity he has been led to argue against.

This is all very true. The article is all about how equality of opportunity is tied to economic inequality and how equality of opportunity is going to become more and more unequal if we do not address these economic inequalities. But, there is not an argument being made for equality of outcomes, as you accurately point out. This concept is not something that anything short of a Marx purist is going to advocate for, and those are very hard to come by.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR





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