Do we live in a Rape Culture?

[THE Bigzoman]

I think not. It's a one of those dumn memes spawnig from feminists and college SJWs these days.

It takes a serious amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that we live in a society that condones and promotes rape.

The same society that gives rape victims more protection than victims of other violent crimes in court; the same society that fills itself with rage at even the slightest possibility of rape; the same society where convicted prisoners--those considered the worst of the worst by society--beat rape convicts to death in prisons; cannot at the same time condone and promote rape.

Thoughts?

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 02:19 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: I think not. It's a one of those dumn memes spawnig from feminists and college SJWs these days.

It takes a serious amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that we live in a society that condones and promotes rape.

The same society that gives rape victims more protection than victims of other violent crimes in court; the same society that fills itself with rage at even the slightest possibility of rape; the same society where convicted prisoners--those considered the worst of the worst by society--beat rape convicts to death in prisons; cannot at the same time condone and promote rape.

Thoughts?

Our legal system takes it very seriously.

"Rape culture" refers to men still thinking a woman is "asking for it" when she dresses the "wrong" way or is too drunk to say no clearly.

[xxlt]

(05-05-2016, 07:44 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Our legal system takes it very seriously.

"Rape culture" refers to men still thinking a woman is "asking for it" when she dresses the "wrong" way or is too drunk to say no clearly.

1. Good clarification on what rape culture means.

2. If you have to ask (OP) and you hint at or outright slander feminists and other men and women in your question, chances are you have a perception problem. It is sort of like asking why all those ignorant colored folks made such a big fuss about having to ride in the back of the bus, when we all know that is where the best seats are. Or, it is sort of like asking why those dumb Jews still moan about a few people being given "special" treatment for few years such long time ago in a country far, far away. I would humbly suggest you try to broaden your perspective. A starting place might be here: http://www.amazon.com/Split-Child-Priest-Catholic-Church/dp/0989656322/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1462446050&sr=1-1&keywords=split+by+mary+dispenza

Seriously. Please put aside my somewhat harsh words above and click the link. If you are willing to read this book it might be helpful. I think it might be helpful because you are going to be reading about the rape of a child. You may find a seven year old girl a more sympathetic figure than an adult woman, and in turn might be able to see rape from a different perspective.

3. I disagree about our legal system, but I confess I only worked around it for about 15 years. Still, I can tell you rapists and sex offenders often are not prosecuted at all, their victims are often treated poorly by the legal system, and when they are prosecuted and convicted the sentences that are imposed are generally very mild relative to other crimes.

[fredtoast]

Like most issues today there are extremists on both sides.

I see some feminists that refuse to believe that not every claim of rape is true. But before I can criticize them I read posts around here about how the only thing Greg Hardy did wrong was hook up with the wrong type of woman.

Rape is the most difficult crime to prosecute. Many times both parties agree that there was a sexual encounter and the only question is what were both parties thinking at the time of the encounter. It is easy to put on proof that the sex happened, but it is much harder to prove what both parties were thinking at the time. That is why so many rape victims feel like they are mistreated by the judicial system. They can not understand why it is so hard to get a conviction based on nothing but her allegations that the sex was not consensual. Just proving that the sex might not not have been consensual is not enough to get a rape conviction. That has to be very frustrating to a woman who really was raped, but just can't prove it.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2016, 09:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Like most issues today there are extremists on both sides.

I see some feminists that refuse to believe that not every claim of rape is true. But before I can criticize them I read posts around here about how the only thing Greg Hardy did wrong was hook up with the wrong type of woman.

Rape is the most difficult crime to prosecute. Many times both parties agree that there was a sexual encounter and the only question is what were both parties thinking at the time of the encounter. It is easy to put on proof that the sex happened, but it is much harder to prove what both parties were thinking at the time. That is why so many rape victims feel like they are mistreated by the judicial system. They can not understand why it is so hard to get a conviction based on nothing but her allegations that the sex was not consensual. Just proving that the sex might not not have been consensual is not enough to get a rape conviction. That has to be very frustrating to a woman who really was raped, but just can't prove it.

And while I am not going to say that there are not false accusations, this right here is why there is a perception of there being a higher prevalence of false accusations than their really are. It's like with Roethlisberger. There were no charges brought because they didn't have enough to press charges, let alone get a conviction. This creates the perception of a false accusation, but in reality we have no idea and depending on whether you wear purple or orange with your black or gold with it often determines how you view that situation.

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 07:44 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Our legal system takes it very seriously.

"Rape culture" refers to men still thinking a woman is "asking for it" when she dresses the "wrong" way or is too drunk to say no clearly.

I don't support rape by any means, but why is drunkenness always allowed as an excused impairment for the female but not the male ?

I can see the reasoning from back in the day when females were the meek little flowers and all, but today they're just as sexually aggressive as men.

If they're both intoxicated, what makes the man held any more accountable ?

Probably the same double standards that keep them out of selective service, for now.

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 11:01 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I don't support rape by any means, but why is drunkenness always allowed as an excused impairment for the female but not the male ?

I can see the reasoning from back in the day when females were the meek little flowers and all, but today they're just as sexually aggressive as men.

If they're both intoxicated, what makes the man held any more accountable ?

Probably the same double standards that keep them out of selective service, for now.

I used that example as a reply to the "thoughts" in the OP.

I agree that if EITHER partner is incapacitated in any way there cannot be consent given.

If one partner of the other forces the other in such a situation it is rape.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 07:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: "Rape culture" refers to men still thinking a woman is "asking for it" when she dresses the "wrong" way or is too drunk to say no clearly.

So, then, there IS no actual rape culture because most men don't think this way.

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 11:03 AM)GMDino Wrote: I used that example as a reply to the "thoughts" in the OP.

I agree that if EITHER partner is incapacitated in any way there cannot be consent given.

If one partner of the other forces the other in such a situation it is rape.

I wasn't necessarily pointing it at you per se, but I still don't get how if they are equally drunk how one doesn't have the ability to reason to say no, but the other is supposed to have the capacity to deduce that they are too impaired to have consensual sex.

I mean, I'm chivalrous at heart, but in the eyes of the law I don't get it.
If there's signs of forced entry, or witnesses ok.
I know a DTF tag doesn't mean go for it, but I would think there'd need to be more evidence than an accusation and claim of inebriation.

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 11:18 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I wasn't necessarily pointing it at you per se, but I still don't get how if they are equally drunk how one doesn't have the ability to reason to say no, but the other is supposed to have the capacity to deduce that they are too impaired to have consensual sex.

I mean, I'm chivalrous at heart, but in the eyes of the law I don't get it.
If there's signs of forced entry, or witnesses ok.
I know a DTF tag doesn't mean go for it, but I would think there'd need to be more evidence than an accusation and claim of inebriation.

If he's too drunk to know if she's too drunk and he does it anyway...it's rape.

Same if it was the other way around.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 11:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: If he's too drunk to know if she's too drunk and he does it anyway...it's rape.

Same if it was the other way around.

So, if both parties are too drunk to consent but they both consent and have sex anyways, then they raped each other. Got it. 

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 11:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: If he's too drunk to know if she's too drunk and he does it anyway...it's rape.

Same if it was the other way around.

Well, sure....if she's like unable to even move.
But my thoughts are centering on a drunken girl that is still functional enough to participate.
I've known people that had a girl crawling all over them at a party get accused of rape because the girl found out later she slept with someone who wasn't as rich or good looking as she thought he was then.

I might be sounding like a jerk, but I just don't get the mindset when there's no proof other than he said she said.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2016, 11:17 AM)PhilHos Wrote: So, then, there IS no actual rape culture because most men don't think this way.

I'd like to agree with you on this, but given when a conversation about this sort of thing comes up there is such a large number of people saying "well if she hadn't dressed that way, or if she hadn't been drinking around them, or if she..." I don't think that most men actively think this way, but it is the way we have been conditioned to think for these types of things for generations. It's why it's said it is a rape culture, because it is so engrained in our culture we are not doing it actively/consciously, but it comes up in our language regarding sexual assault more times than not.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 11:36 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Well, sure....if she's like unable to even move.
But my thoughts are centering on a drunken girl that is still functional enough to participate.
I've known people that had a girl crawling all over them at a party get accused of rape because the girl found out later she slept with someone who wasn't as rich or good looking as she thought he was then.

I might be sounding like a jerk, but I just don't get the mindset when there's no proof other than he said she said.

Here's my problem with the too-drunk-to-consent issue, usually both individuals are drunk. So how do we know that one is too drunk to consent and the other is sober enough to know this? 

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 11:40 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my problem with the too-drunk-to-consent issue, usually both individuals are drunk. So how do we know that one is too drunk to consent and the other is sober enough to know this? 

Precisely !
If drunkenness is admitted as an excuse for one, it should be also for the other.
(barring obvious trauma from being forced or sober witnesses)

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 11:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'd like to agree with you on this, but given when a conversation about this sort of thing comes up there is such a large number of people saying "well if she hadn't dressed that way, or if she hadn't been drinking around them, or if she..." I don't think that most men actively think this way, but it is the way we have been conditioned to think for these types of things for generations. It's why it's said it is a rape culture, because it is so engrained in our culture we are not doing it actively/consciously, but it comes up in our language regarding sexual assault more times than not.

While I'm sure there are people that bring up those questions, I don't believe it's that large a number. Certainly not enough to classify any segment of society as having or perpetuating a "rape culture."

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 11:44 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Precisely !
If drunkenness is admitted as an excuse for one, it should be also for the other.
(barring obvious trauma from being forced or sober witnesses)

Obviously, there are times it's obvious: a chick gets passed out drunk and some sleazeball takes advantage, but I gotta think in most instances, both parties are pretty buzzed and probably not even sober enough to drive. How do we tell then? Do we automatically assume the guy raped the girl? What if it's 2 girls? What if the "guy" is really transgendered? So many questions!

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2016, 11:40 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my problem with the too-drunk-to-consent issue, usually both individuals are drunk. So how do we know that one is too drunk to consent and the other is sober enough to know this? 

So here's why I think that they continue to lay blame on the male in those situations. Mean are perceived as being stronger, and therefore more capable of controlling the situation. They are also perceived as being able to handle intoxicating substances better, and so often aren't seen to be "as drunk" as the girl. It then also involves the perception that men are much more willing to lay pipe with anything that moves (or doesn't as the case may be).

Here is the problem with that thinking, it is actually patriarchal. Actual feminism, fighting for equality between the sexes, is against this line of thinking because it puts the male and female on different levels. Now, how do we fix this? The sad truth is that to look at it in a way of "they were both drunk" or "which one was more drunk" is difficult because you often have no reliable evidence in the situation to point to that. You do end up with these incidents being shoved aside (which happens already) and I have seen people receive no punishment for what very well may have been a rape because of it. It's difficult to handle these sorts of things, but there is no perfect solution.

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 11:48 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Obviously, there are times it's obvious: a chick gets passed out drunk and some sleazeball takes advantage, but I gotta think in most instances, both parties are pretty buzzed and probably not even sober enough to drive. How do we tell then? Do we automatically assume the guy raped the girl? What if it's 2 girls? What if the "guy" is really transgendered? So many questions!

Can a gender-fluid claim rape against their other gender that took over their body, when they were drunk ?

[GMDino]

Do we live in a rape culture?

Just read the defense of rape in this thread.