Do you believe; and why?

[treee]

I entertain all beliefs as possibly true, because as someone stated earlier, part of what makes them beliefs is that they're not provable or unprovable.

[*Nately120*]

I'm not particularly concerned with religion, is the best explanation I can give. I care less about who is magical and more about what it was that we can learn from religions. I realize the whole "our god is magical and did this and this and this and can offer you this and this and this" is quite marketable, though. I was raised casual Catholic and as an adult I now hang out with my gf's family and their methodist ways and I've noticed their songs and sermons and overall message is very "Here's what's in it for you!" compared to what I was used to hearing.

But the main thing I tell people is that I personally can't specifically believe in any one religion because I don't have the confidence to think every other religion is false.

As others have pointed out, Christians believe in one god and actively disbelieve (for the most part) in thousands of other gods. I just don't have that level of "I'm right, they are wrong" sort of confidence, and I personally don't strive to have it.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2019, 11:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not particularly concerned with religion, is the best explanation I can give.  I care less about who is magical and more about what it was that we can learn from religions.  I realize the whole "our god is magical and did this and this and this and can offer you this and this and this" is quite marketable, though.  I was raised casual Catholic and as an adult I now hang out with my gf's family and their methodist ways and I've noticed their songs and sermons and overall message is very "Here's what's in it for you!" compared to what I was used to hearing.

But the main thing I tell people is that I personally can't specifically believe in any one religion because I don't have the confidence to think every other religion is false.

As others have pointed out, Christians believe in one god and actively disbelieve (for the most part) in thousands of other gods.  I just don't have that level of "I'm right, they are wrong" sort of confidence, and I personally don't strive to have it.

Do you have the confidence to think all religion is false?

[samhain]

No. I've tried to and have even considered that it may be better for me overall to believe, but I just don't have it in me.

I just look at the world and it's multitude of cultures and belief systems, and it makes me very skeptical. People in each tribal group believe in something. Some of those groups are even interconnected with shared beliefs. Many of them, maybe even a majority, believe that others that do not believe exactly like them are going to be punished severely for it.

At the end of the day, a majority of these people are going to be dead wrong if even one of these cultures has it right. Like, as in, most of the world's population sentenced to eternal damnation.

I think that's bullshit. Nobody really knows a thing about what happens when we die or why we are here. The belief just gives them comfort. What you believe is generally an extension of your parenting and life experience. It's not overly objective on a grand scale. It's not a matter of examined belief, its a matter of what team you were born rooting for, at least for most people.

[hollodero]

(05-08-2019, 05:24 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL that energy "raining" down from the sun though, some of it is reconstituted as mass, right? 

Actually, I think that when we are talking about individual subatomic particles, there is no loss or gain of mass in this transfer, even when fusion occurs. I think.

I think that's wrong :) As this E=mc² formula states, mass is a form of energy. With fusion (or fission), energy gets set free from the resulting nuclei that is not "bound" to become mass again. In case of the sun, that energy (=photons) can light our day, or gets reflected into space, or gives us sunburns or whatever sun rays do. All that isn't a form of reverting energy back to mass (but rather creating heat/movement or do all kinds of processes that are "mass neutral"). Or heuristically, the sun gets lighter with the centuries, but the planets don't get heavier.

Now sure energy can create mass too, e.g. two photons can turn into an electron and a positron - as much as positrons and electrons can turn into energy. I guess that's how enterprise's warp drive works :) --- but really, everything I say here is to be taken with a grain of salt, I do not want to spread fake science or turn into a false science prophet :)

--- Btw. as for faith, I do not believe in supernatural beings like a god, but I certainly can't know for sure. That's all I feel confortable to believe and to say. I guess that's agnosticism.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-08-2019, 09:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes he did create the scenario and I've never suggested he didn't want them to be curious; he wanted them to be obedient. He couldn't do that without a temptation. Not only did he tempt them by putting the tree there and saying "off limits" he further tempted them by allowing the serpent to coerce them. 

As to folks learning: Folks used to say the earth was flat but the bible always referred to it as round. 

God gave them free will without a conscience; the ability to know right from wrong or the "knowledge of good and evil."  So Adam and Eve had no way of understanding the consequences of their actions; obey=good, disobey=bad.  And God did this fully knowing they would disobey him before the first day of creation.  Why would God have any expectations they would obey knowing they wouldn't?  

That would be like me telling a baby not to poop in its diaper knowing the baby doesn't understand a damn word I'm saying.  Then feeding the baby Ex-lax.  Then getting mad at the baby for pooping in its diaper even though I knew the kid was going to poop in its diaper.  

Who knew a god could be omniscient and yet fall for a logical fallacy?

That's almost as good as god demonstrating how powerful he was with the 10 plagues of Egypt.  Because just freeing the slaves couldn't have possibly demonstrated his power sufficiently. (Oh, and don't forget the lamb's blood so the guy who knows everything and is everywhere doesn't accidentally kill you first born in their sleep.)  Gotta keep that pimp hand strong and all.

There are two reasons why I don't believe.

[hollodero]

(05-09-2019, 03:32 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: There are two reasons why I don't believe.

But aren't believing in a christian god and taking the bible literally two very different things?

- I know some religious people, believers, who do not think the events in the old testament really happened like described. They see them more like metaphors. Now I would still argue these are often gruesome metaphors that teach very dubious and quite inhumane lessons picturing a very vain and vengeful god, sure. But I don't feel one has to believe in raining grasshoppers to believe in god.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-09-2019, 06:43 AM)hollodero Wrote: But aren't believing in a christian god and taking the bible literally two very different things?

- I know some religious people, believers, who do not think the events in the old testament really happened like described. They see them more like metaphors. Now I would still argue these are often gruesome metaphors that teach very dubious and quite inhumane lessons picturing a very vain and vengeful god, sure. But I don't feel one has to believe in raining grasshoppers to believe in god.

It depends on who you ask.

[*Nately120*]

(05-09-2019, 12:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you have the confidence to think all religion is false?

Nope.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-09-2019, 12:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you have the confidence to think all religion is false?

I do.  I don't think any major religion is correct.  Well maybe some Eastern ones are pretty close, but I don't really know enough about them.  But I don't think the point is to be correct.  I don't think we are here to be tested.  I don't think we are here to prove we are good enough.  I never understood the point of that.  

[hollodero]

(05-09-2019, 10:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I do.  I don't think any major religion is correct.  Well maybe some Eastern ones are pretty close, but I don't really know enough about them.  But I don't think the point is to be correct.  I don't think we are here to be tested.  I don't think we are here to prove we are good enough.  I never understood the point of that.  

Not understanding is failing the test...

...why eastern ones?

[*michaelsean*]

(05-09-2019, 10:38 AM)hollodero Wrote: Not understanding is failing the test...

...why eastern ones?

They seem to be a lot less about obeying and punishment, and more about connecting with God or a different plane or however one wants to think about it.  Their God doesn't seem to be a vindictive ego-maniac, but that's just a surface impression I get.  I've never really looked into them.  

[jj22]

I believe because it's a win/win proposition. I'd rather believe and be wrong, then not believe and be wrong.

But I agree with whoever said there is going to be a ton of people wrong because not every religion can be right. So that is pretty scary and sad for those who maintained strong faith (whatever that faith is).

Politics ruined organized religion tho as the "religious right" continues to fight to take away Gods gift of free will for mankind, and it's made hypocrites out of many "Christians".

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 09:42 PM)Dill Wrote: ACtually, B, I don't think people can choose to believe, or what they believe.

I.e., people certainly have beliefs, and beliefs change, but people don't choose them or decide to change.  

This.

I could not "choose" to believe even if I wanted to.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 09:22 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Would you agree that, in general, it is best to believe as many true things and as few untrue things as possible? 

Would you also agree that believing in things without evidence is not the best pathway to truth?

If you agree with either of those statements in the least, then what you believe and why you believe it should matter. 

While I've never used the word "harmed", I do believe that holding a belief in the afterlife when there is no demonstrable evidence for it can led people to not fully take advantage of the one life we know for certain that we have, or to place unneeded importance on things that might not shape their opinions or positions if not for the promise of immortality and damnation. 

I don't value "truth" over happiness.

Going back to an example I said I was going to drop..... If I had a girlfriend who had a meaningless fling with another guy I would rather not know about it if it did not have any effect on our relationship.

Truth by itself has no value.  It all depends on how it effects your life.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-09-2019, 12:13 PM)jj22 Wrote: I believe because it's a win/win proposition. I'd rather believe and be wrong, then not believe and be wrong.

But I agree with whoever said there is going to be a ton of people wrong because not every religion can be right. So that is pretty scary and sad for those who maintained strong faith (whatever that faith is).

Politics ruined organized religion tho as the "religious right" continues to fight to take away Gods gift of free will for mankind, and it's made hypocrites out of many "Christians".

You think organized religion was ruined in recent times?

[*jason*]

(05-09-2019, 12:13 PM)jj22 Wrote: I believe because it's a win/win proposition. I'd rather believe and be wrong, then not believe and be wrong.

But I agree with whoever said there is going to be a ton of people wrong because not every religion can be right. So that is pretty scary and sad for those who maintained strong faith (whatever that faith is).

Politics ruined organized religion tho as the "religious right" continues to fight to take away Gods gift of free will for mankind, and it's made hypocrites out of many "Christians".

Why does somebody have to be wrong? I see a ton of similarities in most faiths. Could it be that God reveals himself to different people in different ways?

[Dill]

(05-08-2019, 09:46 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Are you speaking of determinism?

Perhaps a soft determinism. Not the hard, 17th-century "mechanistic" kind.

People arrive at their beliefs as a consequence of many factors, most of which they have no control over, so there is always a deal of chance and accident in the formation of beliefs (fundamental beliefs about the nature of the universe). I don't see a "butterfly effect" setting off a rigid, linear concatenation of causes and effects determining that this person is going to be a Muslim and that one a Roman Catholic.

What I am arguing, though, is that fundamental beliefs cannot be chosen. They pretty much choose us.

I hate the Patriots. But I believe they won the Superbowl this year.  I may lie and claim they did not, or fudge it with some rationalization (they cheated!). But  I cannot "choose" to believe they did not win.   Our minds/brains are not made like that.

Same for answers to questions like are you a Christian/atheist/Buddhist?  People don't decide those issues like they decide to try rocky road instead of vanilla ice cream.  You choose to put bacon bits on your salad--or not. You do not "choose" to be an atheist. You can't help it. If someone makes a really convincing (to you) argument that there is a god, you will not be able to choose not to believe.

People's beliefs do change though. Perhaps someone accepted his parents' worldview without much thought, and then 12 years of public schooling made that worldview impossible to hold any more.  Kepler wanted so badly to believe planetary orbits were perfectly circular.  But could not maintain that belief when his empirical observation undermined it.

[jj22]

(05-09-2019, 01:31 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You think organized religion was ruined in recent times?

Not recent (Trump) times. But over time separation of state and church has become more and more blurred. You have ministers preaching about politics in the pulpit and that to me seems like it's too much.

[jj22]

(05-09-2019, 01:46 PM)jason Wrote: Why does somebody have to be wrong? I see a ton of similarities in most faiths. Could it be that God reveals himself to different people in different ways?

Could be. Hopefully, because people are committed to their religion and if only one is right then there is going to be a lot of people in hell wondering how they go there and wishing they would have just enjoyed life if they were going to end up in hell anyway!

You are right, there is a lot of similarities in all religions. There is a lot of similarities even in Muslim and Christian religion (old testament specifically). Not the terrorism and promise of virgins, but social views like women's rights (not just abortion although that too, but how they should dress, their roles, which gender is dominant etc), both religions think America is a cesspool of evil (Modern day Babylon) and represents the end of times.