Dr. Jill Biden wants BOTH LSU and IOWA WBB to visit White House.

[*Nately120*]

(04-09-2023, 11:30 AM)Dill Wrote: I think it's an American thing, since "Dr." is quite a respected title in Europe in non-medical disciplines.

Here we just don't put much store in book-learnin' the way they do in other countries. 

Americans are more comfortable with people bragging about wealth and sports accomplishments;
but fancy degrees don't make you better or "smarter" than anyone else. 

Don't be fooled, a lot of American people decided medical doctors weren't all that legit during covid.  We tend to value a person's accomplishments only as far as they fit with our own mindsets.

There is an anti-education bias growing on the right, because republicans used to be the college educated variety while democrats were the working class type and things have done a bit of a 180.  It's mostly amusing when you have republican leaders who have ivy league educations acting like they are obnoxious hicks because that's who votes for them.

Look at the pundits on Fox News, they have juris doctorates or advanced degrees from elite ivy league schools and they sit in their massive HQ in Manhattan and talk about how education is bad, blue states are bad and so on and so forth.

It takes all kinds of people to make a world and neither of my parents went to college, but it's interesting seeing the educated elites sit in their tower in NYC as they extol the negatives of all they embody and where they are when they could just quit and live the dream of being a coal miner in rural Mississippi.

[*Nately120*]

(04-09-2023, 11:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wonder sometimes about the titles used for this stuff. Like, okay, I can understand if you have a consistent argument for using Dr. for professional doctorates and not research doctorates. But if you use Dr. for a Ph.D. then you should for an Ed.D. as well. Then you have the weird thing where we call M.D.s Dr. but not J.D.s. Why is that? Is it just because we have such a disdain for J.D.s in society as a profession? And what about a D.N.P.? Should they be called Dr.? That could just get confusing.

People seem pretty comfortable dismissing education when it's convenient.  That reminds me, I got my car inspected recently and the "mechanic" told me my brake lines were leaking and they needed fixed.  So I need to find a post on the internet that says brake fluid actually makes brakes work WORSE, so I can show him. 

[Dill]

(04-09-2023, 11:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wonder sometimes about the titles used for this stuff. Like, okay, I can understand if you have a consistent argument for using Dr. for professional doctorates and not research doctorates. But if you use Dr. for a Ph.D. then you should for an Ed.D. as well. Then you have the weird thing where we call M.D.s Dr. but not J.D.s. Why is that? Is it just because we have such a disdain for J.D.s in society as a profession? And what about a D.N.P.? Should they be called Dr.? That could just get confusing.

This is largely a historical development in the U.S., Bels.

There were no Juris doctors granted in the 19th century, but lawyers everywhere. Juris Doctor was not commonly labeled such until the 1960s. So our ways of talking about lawyers were set before the degree.

Doctorates in physics, biology, languages, social science etc., only became a thing after the Civil War, as U.S. colleges shifted from a Latin-based 
curriculum to the German research model. But proportionally to the population, these were very few in number. The religious right began contesting their authority way back then, especially as the new universities began teaching Darwin and secular religious history. That contestation of legitimacy has extended to many other fields as well, including the social sciences and humanities--anything which could contest received religious views. 

In Europe, the title "doctor" was developed in the 1300s to apply to those who went beyond the masters in studying theology, law, medicine, and the liberal arts (meaning scholastic philosophy, not our contemporary humanities with literature and history) in Medieval universities, which were not research entities at all, and quite hostile to new knowledge. People who got doctorate degrees usually went on to teach their subjects in universities, as supposed to practicing their subjects outside. They were the masters of the masters, so to speak. The Ph.D.--requiring a dissertation*--developed in Germany during the late 18th century and fixed into most universities there by second decade of the 19th. That's where our current ideals of academic freedom and secular research were developed, in contrast with the dogmatic ethos of the Medieval university.

*i.e., a research based degree which created new knowledge, which usually evolved during a succession of "seminars," also a German innovation--a class where students participated in presenting and discussing each other's work. Medieval doctorates were not about any of that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

via GIPHY

[Dill]

(04-09-2023, 11:44 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Don't be fooled, a lot of American people decided medical doctors weren't all that legit during covid.  We tend to value a person's accomplishments only as far as they fit with our own mindsets.

There is an anti-education bias growing on the right, because republicans used to be the college educated variety while democrats were the working class type and things have done a bit of a 180.  It's mostly amusing when you have republican leaders who have ivy league educations acting like they are obnoxious hicks because that's who votes for them.

Look at the pundits on Fox News, they have juris doctorates or advanced degrees from elite ivy league schools and they sit in their massive HQ in Manhattan and talk about how education is bad, blue states are bad and so on and so forth.

It takes all kinds of people to make a world and neither of my parents went to college, but it's interesting seeing the educated elites sit in their tower in NYC as they extol the negatives of all they embody and where they are when they could just quit and live the dream of being a coal miner in rural Mississippi.

LOL I always try not to be fooled.

The hostility of the right to higher ed and degrees is not new, though. It began back in the 1880s, as college grads came home from research universities doubting that Moses wrote the Pentateuch and reading Darwin. Then there was the Scopes Monkey trial in 1925, a victory for the right which brought them national scorn from journalists, who would become "the enemy" along with universities.

Right now we are seeing much more precise targeting, owing to modern communications technology and the money behind the new right. 

When have you ever seen Stephen Miller on Fox News when he doesn't rail about the educated elites who think they are better than you? 
"'The left' doesn't care about flyover American!"

You are quite right about the surreal hostility to elites and elite universities from those who benefitted from Harvard and Yale degrees. DeSantis
would prefer someone from Hillsdale than his alma maters Harvard and Yale.  However, Hannity is a true non-elite anti-elitist as he started two colleges and finished degrees with none.

[*pally*]

Conservatives have no problem using the Dr title for Henry Kissinger or Seb Gorka. They just have a problem with an educated liberal woman using the title

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2023, 05:48 PM)pally Wrote: Conservatives have no problem using the Dr title for Henry Kissinger or Seb Gorka.  They just have a problem with an educated liberal woman using the title

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you calling me a sexist? 
I certainly didn't call you anything, but merely presented a possible reason as to why someone would use quotes around "Dr".

[GMDino]

I don't see where he referred to you directly?

(04-09-2023, 09:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you calling me a sexist? 
I certainly didn't call you anything, but merely presented a possible reason as to why someone would use quotes around "Dr".

But this you?

(04-09-2023, 12:47 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote:

via GIPHY

[Vas Deferens]

(04-09-2023, 06:58 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Many feel that the term "Dr." shouldn't be used for non-medical Doctorate degrees.

In that case you should put “many” in quotes as well

[*Nately120*]

(04-10-2023, 09:26 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: In that case you should put “many” in quotes as well

It's more about the "feel" part. And I say that as someone who has also played devil's advocate when liberals scoff at theological doctorates.

There is no law that says you have to call someone sir or ma'am or doctor or that you even have to say aunt or uncle or call your parents mom or dad rather than their first names.

Do whatever you want, but calling Jill Biden "doctor" doesn't change anything.  Express yourself as you see fit. I'm sure "President" Trump had been used by some folks. 

Oh and the KC Chiefs were "Super Bowl Champions" since they got gifted the win in the afc title game. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-09-2023, 06:58 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Many feel that the term "Dr." shouldn't be used for non-medical Doctorate degrees.

Considering the OVERWHELMING majority of medical doctors in the world DO NOT have PHDs, this take is horribly paradoxical and laughable.