Education Reform thread

[BmorePat87]

Some of us were talking education reform in the TV viewership thread. Let's continue it here.

My last post said:



The data is mixed on results [of private v public] for a number of reasons. There some metrics that suggest slightly better performance, but what metrics should be used? The most common is standardize testing, but educators know that's not nearly as useful as non-educators make it. College graduation rates? College isn't for everyone.

Even then, there's not a lot to suggest that private schools are inherently better.

Do you take into account socioeconomic status? Do you take into account parent education level? These are all higher for private schools and play a huge role in a child's learning.

Private schools offer smaller class sizes because they enroll far less students. They do not have to honor or create IEP's for students with disabilities either. They can pick and chose who attends.

These are all factors that change if you accept vouchers. In states that do not require private schools to follow educational civil rights laws to get vouchers, private schools can make more money and leave the most struggling students behind. In states that would make it a stipulation, those best private schools would just not accept the vouchers.

If you have an exodus from public to private, private needs to hire more teachers and public would lay off. Unfortunately, private pays about 30% less than public and offers fewer benefits. You teach private because you do not needs to deal with as much red tape and have smaller classrooms. If that changes, people are either going to get paid less or private schools will need to pay more, raising the cost of tuition.

End of the day, kids in poverty won't do better in an overcrowded private school, and the childhood poverty rate is what needs to be addressed.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-22-2020, 12:22 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Some of us were talking education reform in the TV viewership thread. Let's continue it here.

My last post said:



The data is mixed on results [of private v public] for a number of reasons. There some metrics that suggest slightly better performance, but what metrics should be used? The most common is standardize testing, but educators know that's not nearly as useful as non-educators make it. College graduation rates? College isn't for everyone.

Even then, there's not a lot to suggest that private schools are inherently better.

Do you take into account socioeconomic status? Do you take into account parent education level? These are all higher for private schools and play a huge role in a child's learning.

Private schools offer smaller class sizes because they enroll far less students. They do not have to honor or create IEP's for students with disabilities either. They can pick and chose who attends.

These are all factors that change if you accept vouchers. In states that do not require private schools to follow educational civil rights laws to get vouchers, private schools can make more money and leave the most struggling students behind. In states that would make it a stipulation, those best private schools would just not accept the vouchers.

If you have an exodus from public to private, private needs to hire more teachers and public would lay off. Unfortunately, private pays about 30% less than public and offers fewer benefits. You teach private because you do not needs to deal with as much red tape and have smaller classrooms. If that changes, people are either going to get paid less or private schools will need to pay more, raising the cost of tuition.

End of the day, kids in poverty won't do better in an overcrowded private school, and the childhood poverty rate is what needs to be addressed.

Parents could also want an option for religion to be part of their childs education.  Something they cannot get in the public school.

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 01:56 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Parents could also want an option for religion to be part of their childs education.  Something they cannot get in the public school.

Should the state fund that?

There's a lot of great case law surrounding that topic. Once class is done for the day, I'll find a video we watch in class surrounding it.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-22-2020, 01:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Should the state fund that?

There's a lot of great case law surrounding that topic. Once class is done for the day, I'll find a video we watch in class surrounding it.

No, I don't think the Sate should fund it.  I think I should be able to take my 1200 school tax and apply it to a private school if my child or children were enrolled.  I could see an issue with lost taxes and funding the public schools, but at least where I live, the number of kids going to private schools or even the availability of private schools is very small.  

Just to be clear, these are examples.  I am perfectly happy with the public school system my kids are in.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-22-2020, 02:13 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No, I don't think the Sate should fund it.  I think I should be able to take my 1200 school tax and apply it to a private school if my child or children were enrolled.  I could see an issue with lost taxes and funding the public schools, but at least where I live, the number of kids going to private schools or even the availability of private schools is very small.  

Just to be clear, these are examples.  I am perfectly happy with the public school system my kids are in.  

Should people without kids be able to opt out of the school taxes?

[BigPapaKain]

(09-22-2020, 04:05 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Should people without kids be able to opt out of the school taxes?

I'm all about that. Or at the very least having more control over which school district my money goes to. I'd rather put taxes into my niece's school district than the one I live in, but I also don't want to move to that district. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 02:13 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No, I don't think the Sate should fund it.  I think I should be able to take my 1200 school tax and apply it to a private school if my child or children were enrolled.  I could see an issue with lost taxes and funding the public schools, but at least where I live, the number of kids going to private schools or even the availability of private schools is very small.  

Just to be clear, these are examples.  I am perfectly happy with the public school system my kids are in.  

Should I be able to opt out of all public services and have my taxes go to paying for private? Security. Trash. Parks.

[fredtoast]

There is a very simple answer, but it would be very complicated to implement. It would even require amending some state constitutions. But schools should be ran by the state and equally funded per pupil. There could be some adjustments for schools in large cities where higher property values make it more expensive to build a school than out in the country. But this would be THE SINGLE BIGGETS POLICY that could start addressing the wealth/opportunity gap in this country.

It would really chap the asses of people in wealthy communities paying a lot of property tax, but can they really complain too loudly when they have been claiming all along that poor people have equal opportunity in this country?

Taking money away from public school to finance private schools is ridiculous. There are going to be way too many kids left behind in public schools that will be much worse than they are now.

[fredtoast]

The entire country (even people with no kids) benefit from a well educated work force.

[fredtoast]

Also need to make vocational schools an option for high school students that don't want to go to college.

I am pretty sure everyone will agree with this.

[*michaelsean*]

It depends on what public school system you are in. I was most likely always going to send my kids to Catholic school, but it took about a year of living where I do and hearing how the kids speak to make it a no doubter, and I’m not talking about current teen speak I’m talking about horrendous grammar. It doesn’t mean the school is no good, but rather the environment. Where my kids went to school about 98% go on to college. Obviously not all graduate, but going to college is the goal of virtually every student. There’s no way you are going to have the same atmosphere at a 40% school.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2020, 04:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It depends on what public school system you are in. I was most likely always going to send my kids to Catholic school, but it took about a year of living where I do and hearing how the kids speak to make it a no doubter, and I’m not talking about current teen speak I’m talking about horrendous grammar.  It doesn’t mean the school is no good, but rather the environment. Where my kids went to school about 98% go on to college. Obviously not all graduate, but going to college is the goal of virtually every student. There’s no way you are going to have the same atmosphere at a 40% school.

I don't blame anyone who wants to send their kids to private schools.  We just can't take money away from public schools to pay for private schools.

Health care should work the same way.  The government should provide a certain level of health care for all citizens.  The people who want to spend more for more extensive care still can, but we can't take money away from the public option to pay for individuals who wnat more.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-22-2020, 04:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Also need to make vocational schools an option for high school students that don't want to go to college.

I am pretty sure everyone will agree with this.

I'm a hypocrite for saying this, but the push for every kid to go to college is insane, and yes we should have far more vocational schools.  The reason I say I'm a hypocrite is there's no way my kids weren't going to college.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-22-2020, 04:12 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I'm all about that. Or at the very least having more control over which school district my money goes to. I'd rather put taxes into my niece's school district than the one I live in, but I also don't want to move to that district. 

I think the public has an obligation to fund public schools. If people want to send their kids to private or religious schools then pay the tuition. If we funnel parents school taxes to private schools then why should tax payers without kids pay school taxes? Then school funding will be reduced along with the quality of the schools.

Because of public funding I was able to get an education that provided a career with a good salary which allows me to pay more in taxes. The public invested in me and it paid off for the public and my family. Win, win.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2020, 05:30 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Because of public funding I was able to get an education that provided a career with a good salary which allows me to pay more in taxes. The public invested in me and it paid off for the public and my family. Win, win.

This.

Plus business owners benefit from being able to hire educated workers.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I think funding issues aside, they need to go away from standardized testing and default college prep and focus a bit more on life skills.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but here they have gotten rid of nearly all life skill classes. There's no shop, no home ec, etc. We currently have an education system where you're required to learn Algebra II and Pre-Calculus, but how many people ACTUALLY use any of that in their daily life? The vast majority of the population will never again use it in their life after they graduate. Meanwhile they're graduating without the ability to change their oil/a flat tire, without the ability to create a budget, cook a simple meal, do a simple sewing fix, etc.

Also need to make trade schools more of a valid life path rather than portraying it as a place where kids not smart enough for college go. Years of "you'll need to know this for college" and "if you want to live a successful life, you need a college degree" vs a single day visiting a trade school as a Sophomore while it's painted in a mediocre-at-best light. Easy to see why there's a shortage of skilled trade workers. Also can't help but imagine it increases the number of people who go to college because that's why they've been told all their life they need to do, find out it's not right for them and don't finish the degree, but now have some student debt with nothing to show for it.

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is a very simple answer, but it would be very complicated to implement.  It would even require amending some state constitutions.  But schools should be ran by the state and equally funded per pupil.  There could be some adjustments for schools in large cities where higher property values make it more expensive to build a school than out in the country.  But this would be THE SINGLE BIGGETS POLICY that could start addressing the wealth/opportunity gap in this country.

It would really chap the asses of people in wealthy communities paying a lot of property tax, but can they really complain too loudly when they have been claiming all along that poor people have equal opportunity in this country?

Taking money away from public school to finance private schools is ridiculous.  There are going to be way too many kids left behind in public schools that will be much worse than they are now.

I can get on board with state funding versus local, though I'd recommend just an algorithm for determining funding based on different factors (COL, poverty rates, # of students w 504/IEP's, etc) rather than the flat rate, or a flat rate plus the additional algorithm. 

One issue this helps is school facilities/construction costs where you see wealth inequality. A big issue was Baltimore schools without heat and AC. The state gives them money but doesn't account for the fact that these schools need to be completely refitted to install the new systems. Schools then can't get the local funding to do it and in turn forfeit the state funding. Then they get blamed for not using the money. 

I'd also push for more community model schools, partnering up with the local government to determine the services needed in the community. Some communities may need more than others.

of course, the issue of poverty goes hand in hand with education and both need to be addressed.

(09-22-2020, 04:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Also need to make vocational schools an option for high school students that don't want to go to college.

I am pretty sure everyone will agree with this.

Agreed big time. I'd also like to see graduation track systems for kids who identify wanting to go vocational or through another program early on. Education needs to be personalized in that sense. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 07:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think funding issues aside, they need to go away from standardized testing and default college prep and focus a bit more on life skills.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but here they have gotten rid of nearly all life skill classes. There's no shop, no home ec, etc. We currently have an education system where you're required to learn Algebra II and Pre-Calculus, but how many people ACTUALLY use any of that in their daily life? The vast majority of the population will never again use it in their life after they graduate. Meanwhile they're graduating without the ability to change their oil/a flat tire, without the ability to create a budget, cook a simple meal, do a simple sewing fix, etc.

Also need to make trade schools more of a valid life path rather than portraying it as a place where kids not smart enough for college go. Years of "you'll need to know this for college" and "if you want to live a successful life, you need a college degree" vs a single day visiting a trade school as a Sophomore while it's painted in a mediocre-at-best light. Easy to see why there's a shortage of skilled trade workers. Also can't help but imagine it increases the number of people who go to college because that's why they've been told all their life they need to do, find out it's not right for them and don't finish the degree, but now have some student debt with nothing to show for it.

Maryland requires: 1 algebra class, 1 geometry, 1 other math class, and be enrolled in 4 years of math total. 

But my county has it set up so you have to go: algebra I, geometry, algebra II. All other math classes are more advanced than that. No business math at all. There's a financial literacy math, but it's not a math credit. It's frustrating. 

To graduate, you have to select one of these routes:

-2 years of language
-2 advanced tech ed classes
-2 years taking a 1 class at the career tech school (engineering, architecture, auto tech, nursing, etc)
-2 years of career research/skills with work release senior year
-apprenticeship program

so in that area, there's a lot of great options. Still, there needs to be more vocational options, because the career tech school has limited slots. 

Agreed with standardize testing and college prep. My state requires financial literacy be taught, so my county shoved it into the last two weeks of my American Govt class. I've been using that unit to push community college and vocational options.

[BmorePat87]

Tech ed has gotten cooler. Still have the classic shop education, but they also have robotics and 3D printing too.

[fredtoast]

They need to put more emphasis on Sex Education.  Now that kids have unlimited access to porn that is where they are learning about sex, and it is all wrong.  Most boys are probably choking their partner and going for anal the first time they have sex.

We would not have a 50% divorce rate if proper cunnilingus techniques were taught in high school.