End of U.S.-Saudi cash cow?

[Benton]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/03/461862259/saudi-arabia-iran-face-off-as-sectarian-tensions-escalate-after-executions
http://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/461997739/examining-the-confrontation-between-saudi-arabia-and-iran
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/06/saudi-arabia-russia-relations-must-improve.html

Nutshell: Iran and the U.S. have been having better relations as they're the only two countries interested in fighting ISIS (and no, Russia isn't, they're only bombing anti-government Syrians). The Saudis don't care for it and have started trying to cozy up to the Russians. Iran is set to have oil sanctions to some European countries lifted next year, which is something the Saudis are unhappy about. But — as Iran hasn't nuked anyone — nobody is too interested in extending the sanctions, so it looks like Iran will start sitting at the big kids table.

So the question is, are we finally going to see an end to giving millions to subsidize the Saudis?

[GMDino]

(01-06-2016, 01:35 PM)Benton Wrote: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/03/461862259/saudi-arabia-iran-face-off-as-sectarian-tensions-escalate-after-executions
http://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/461997739/examining-the-confrontation-between-saudi-arabia-and-iran
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/06/saudi-arabia-russia-relations-must-improve.html

Nutshell: Iran and the U.S. have been having better relations as they're the only two countries interested in fighting ISIS (and no, Russia isn't, they're only bombing anti-government Syrians). The Saudis don't care for it and have started trying to cozy up to the Russians. Iran is set to have oil sanctions to some European countries lifted next year, which is something the Saudis are unhappy about. But — as Iran hasn't nuked anyone — nobody is too interested in extending the sanctions, so it looks like Iran will start sitting at the big kids table.

So the question is, are we finally going to see an end to giving millions to subsidize the Saudis?

Short answer: no.

When do EVER stop giving money to our "friends"?

[Belsnickel]

(01-06-2016, 01:35 PM)Benton Wrote: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/03/461862259/saudi-arabia-iran-face-off-as-sectarian-tensions-escalate-after-executions
http://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/461997739/examining-the-confrontation-between-saudi-arabia-and-iran
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/06/saudi-arabia-russia-relations-must-improve.html

Nutshell: Iran and the U.S. have been having better relations as they're the only two countries interested in fighting ISIS (and no, Russia isn't, they're only bombing anti-government Syrians). The Saudis don't care for it and have started trying to cozy up to the Russians. Iran is set to have oil sanctions to some European countries lifted next year, which is something the Saudis are unhappy about. But — as Iran hasn't nuked anyone — nobody is too interested in extending the sanctions, so it looks like Iran will start sitting at the big kids table.

So the question is, are we finally going to see an end to giving millions to subsidize the Saudis?

I flippin' hope so. I'm tired of us being in bed with a regime that breeds and has spread the Islamic theology that almost all of the Muslim terrorists follow.

[fredtoast]

We will continue to give obscene amount of money to both Saudi Arabia and Israel who are sworn enemies.

It is ridiculous. We have to just get out of that middle east mess and let them either wipe each other out or find some way to live in peace.

And no amount of troops or money will solve the problem until these countries establish governments that are not based on religion.

[Benton]

(01-06-2016, 01:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We will continue to give obscene amount of money to both Saudi Arabia and Israel who are sworn enemies.

It is ridiculous.  We have to just get out of that middle east mess and let them either wipe each other out or find some way to live in peace.

And no amount of troops or money will solve the problem until these countries establish governments that are not based on religion.

I agree, we should, but I don't think we will.

But we tried to stabilize it by backing Israel. That didn't work. We tried it with the Saudis. That didn't work. I'm beginning to think we may be leaning to trying it with Iran and seeing if the third time is the charm.

[Bengalzona]

(01-06-2016, 02:27 PM)Benton Wrote: I agree, we should, but I don't think we will.

But we tried to stabilize it by backing Israel. That didn't work. We tried it with the Saudis. That didn't work. I'm beginning to think we may be leaning to trying it with Iran and seeing if the third time is the charm.

Actually, we already tried Iran once before. We got 20+ years of peace and pissing off the Soviets. Then it all exploded in our face.

We chose Israel as our client nation after the Six Day War to make some moolah selling arms. The Arab League nations had all become arms clients of the Soviets, who were doing a pretty good business. And Israel had a lot of money to pay. Plus, in the anti-communist climate of the time, Israel was a good bet. They were already beating the Arab armies with second-hand WWII surplus material. It made a nice showplace to show the superiority of our arms, training and doctrines to attract further buyers and to emasculate the Soviets.

It was a nice little sideshow. That is, it was until the Yom Kippur War. Due to a massive surprise attack and some innovative strategy on the part of the Egyptians, Israel was in a bad way. They needed war supplies (such as missiles, tank parts, etc.) replenished for all of those new goodies we sold them. And they needed them quick. Golda Meir petitioned Nixon. The Arab nations threatened an oil embargo if we got involved. Nixon chose to resupply Israel, Israel was able to counter-attack and push the Arabs out, the Arabs then voted an embargo through OPEC, and thus began our new naive journey into the labyrinth of Middle East politics.

We got the embargo stopped, but oil prices would never be near as low as they were before. We got the Arabs and Israelis to stop 'all-out' combat (although, as a result, terrorism really began to take off in this period). The peace was obtained by paying-off Israel and Egypt and Jordan to become outwardly tolerant of each other (this was the "If we could just find Israel a couple of nice Arab kids to play with, maybe they could start to fit in!" plan). As a result, Israel became a regional military superpower while Egypt and Jordan really started to like the U.S. money and arms (they never really came around to liking Israel, but were willing to put on a facade since the price was right).

The Saudis caught on to this little game early. They didn't need our money. With the new raised oil prices, the Saudi elite and their Sunni cousins in neighboring nations were bathing in unimaginable wealth. And Saudi Arabia could never show tolerance to Israel because of of Islam. But we did have one thing that the Saudis were really interested in: advanced weapons. The kind of stuff, like the AWACS, that we were selling to Israel. Even at that time (early 80's), the Saudis were becoming concerned with the military build-up of their crackpot poorer relations in the North (Iraq and Syria). The Saudis were more concerned with these than they were with Israel. They weren't exactly unhappy when Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear plant in the early 80's (they just wished that it had been someone other than "those" infidels).

And the Saudis, representing their neighboring distant cousins in the oil rich south, were also concerned with Iran and the Shi'ites. There were and are a lot of Shit'ites who work menial jobs in the oil rich countries of the Middle East. In some places, they make up the majority of the population. But they don't have the money or the power. In fact, there have been many worker uprisings that have been brutally put down in these oil rich countries. The Saudis were concerned that after the Iranian revolution, the Shi'ite Iranians would attempt to export rebellion to the oil rich states. And they did. So, we had something the Saudis wanted. It wasn't enough to get them to shake hands and play nice with Israel. But it was enough to get them to turn their backs to Israel and ignore them. And that has been the way it has stayed for thirty plus years.

Arabs in the oil rich countries who didn't like their nations' politics toward Israel had wonderful outlets to 'spew the Jihad' in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Africa and, after the Gulf War, back at the West. Syria, lacking their former wanna-be fellow bullies from the Arab League, decided it was best just to leave Israel alone, buy up Soviet surplus and build chemical weapons, and terrorize their own people. Iraq, another former wanna-be bully, decided to concentrate on attacking Iran and their own Kurds for awhile. They have a lot of Shi'ites in Iraq and it made sense to make an impression on them about how powerful their government was compared to Iran. They also decided to buy up Soviet surplus while building chemical weapons. But then they tried to build "nucyuhlar weapons of mass destruction" to intimidate their rich cousins to the south into sharing the dough. The Saudis and their cousins had no issue at all about calling the U.S. to spank Iraq when they got too big for their britches and invaded Kuwait. Heck, they were even willing to host troops and bankroll most of it. And when we came back and invaded Iraq a decade later, the Saudi king was even willing to hold hands an lip kiss George Dubya in public! But they still won't make nice with Israel... and no one really expects them to or cares anymore.

And all of this began with one decision by Richard Nixon in 1973. And that is why we have cheap oil prices now. Having got the feared Iraqis out of the picture, now the Saudis can concentrate on Iran and force them to stop inspiring the scum non-Sunni peasant workers to revolt. And they do this by flooding the market with oil to undercut Iranian oil profits now that sanctions are being lifted.

Something to think about the next time you fill up.

[BengalHawk62]

(01-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Actually, we already tried Iran once before. We got 20+ years of peace and pissing off the Soviets. Then it all exploded in our face.

We chose Israel as our client nation after the Six Day War to make some moolah selling arms. The Arab League nations had all become arms clients of the Soviets, who were doing a pretty good business. And Israel had a lot of money to pay. Plus, in the anti-communist climate of the time, Israel was a good bet. They were already beating the Arab armies with second-hand WWII surplus material. It made a nice showplace to show the superiority of our arms, training and doctrines to attract further buyers and to emasculate the Soviets.

It was a nice little sideshow. That is, it was until the Yom Kippur War. Due to a massive surprise attack and some innovative strategy on the part of the Egyptians, Israel was in a bad way. They needed war supplies (such as missiles, tank parts, etc.) replenished for all of those new goodies we sold them. And they needed them quick. Golda Meir petitioned Nixon. The Arab nations threatened an oil embargo if we got involved. Nixon chose to resupply Israel, Israel was able to counter-attack and push the Arabs out, the Arabs in voted an embargo through OPEC, and thus began our new naive journey into the labyrinth of Middle East politics.

We got the embargo stopped, but oil prices would never be near as low as they were before. We got the Arabs and Israelis to stop 'all-out' combat (although, as a result, terrorism really began to take off in this period). The peace was obtained by paying-off Israel and Egypt and Jordan to become outwardly tolerant of each other (this was the "If we could just find Israel a couple of nice Arab kids to play with, maybe they could start to fit in!" plan). As a result, Israel became a regional military superpower while Egypt and Jordan really started to like the U.S. money and arms (they never really came around to liking Israel, but were willing to put on a facade since the price was right).

The Saudis caught on to this little game early. They didn't need our money. With the new raised oil prices, the Saudi elite and their Sunni cousins in neighboring nations were bathing in unimaginable wealth. And Saudi Arabia could never show tolerance to Israel because of of Islam. But we did have one thing that the Saudis were really interested in: advanced weapons. The kind of stuff, like the AWACS, that we were selling to Israel. Even at that time (early 80's), the Saudis were becoming concerned with the military build-up of their crackpot poorer relations in the North (Iraq and Syria). The Saudis were more concerned with these than they were with Israel. They weren't exactly unhappy when Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear plant in the early 80's (they just wished that it had been someone other than "those" infidels).

And the Saudis, representing their neighboring distant cousins in the oil rich south, were also concerned with Iran and the Shi'ites. There were and are a lot of Shit'ites who work menial jobs in the oil rich countries of the Middle East. In some places, they make up the majority of the population. But they don't have the money or the power. In fact, there have been many worker uprisings that have been brutally put down in these oil rich countries. The Saudis were concerned that after the Iranian revolution, the Shi'ite Iranians would attempt to export rebellion to the oil rich states. And they did. So, we had something the Saudis wanted. It wasn't enough to get them to shake hands and play nice with Israel. But it was enough to get them to turn their backs to Israel and ignore them. And that has been the way it has stayed for thirty plus years.

Arabs in the oil rich countries who didn't like their nations' politics toward Israel had wonderful outlets to 'spew the Jihad' in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Africa and, after the Gulf War, back at the West. Syria, lacking their former wanna-be fellow bullies from the Arab League, decided it was best just to leave Israel alone, buy up Soviet surplus and build chemical weapons, and terrorize their own people. Iraq, another former wanna-be bully, decided to concentrate on attacking Iran and their own Kurds for awhile. They have a lot of Shi'ites in Iraq and it made sense to make an impression on them about how powerful their government was compared to Iran. They also decided to buy up Soviet surplus while building chemical weapons. But then they tried to build "nucyuhlar weapons of mass destruction" to intimidate their rich cousins to the south into sharing the dough. The Saudis and their cousins had no issue at all about calling the U.S. to spank Iraq when they got too big for their britches and invaded Kuwait. Heck, they were even willing to host troops and bankroll most of it. And when we came back and invaded Iraq a decade later, the Saudi king was even willing to hold hands an lip kiss George Dubya in public! But they still won't make nice with Israel... and no one really expects them to or cares anymore.

And all of this began with one decision by Richard Nixon in 1973. And that is why we have cheap oil prices now. Having got the feared Iraqis out of the picture, now the Saudis can concentrate on Iran and force them to stop inspiring the scum non-Sunni peasant workers to revolt. And they do this by flooding the market with oil to undercut Iranian oil profits now that sanctions are being lifted.

Something to think about the next time you fill up.

My head hurts. 

I will not thank Richard Nixon for anything.  I personally blame Obama for the low oil prices today.  Damn him and his tear jerking anti-gun rhetoric! Come and try taking my guns away from my cold dead hands, I dare ya!

[Benton]

(01-06-2016, 05:13 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: My head hurts. 

I will not thank Richard Nixon for anything.  I personally blame Obama for the low oil prices today.  Damn him and his tear jerking anti-gun rhetoric! Come and try taking my guns away from my cold dead hands, I dare ya!

I'll give Zona's post a read when I get off in a bit. But as far as oil prices, a lot of the current (i.e., this last few years) drop is a mix of more domestic production, the Saudis pumping the market to hurt Iran and Russia trying to up its game. For our part, fracking has a lot to do with it.

[StLucieBengal]

I wish we would just leave those people to all kill each other off in that region.

Close our borders to that region and stop giving them money.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-06-2016, 05:13 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: My head hurts. 

I will not thank Richard Nixon for anything.  I personally blame Obama for the low oil prices today.  Damn him and his tear jerking anti-gun rhetoric! Come and try taking my guns away from my cold dead hands, I dare ya!

Is that Hayden Fry on your avatar?

[fredtoast]

(01-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Actually, we already tried Iran once before. We got 20+ years of peace and pissing off the Soviets. Then it all exploded in our face.

We chose Israel as our client nation after the Six Day War to make some moolah selling arms. The Arab League nations had all become arms clients of the Soviets, who were doing a pretty good business. And Israel had a lot of money to pay. Plus, in the anti-communist climate of the time, Israel was a good bet. They were already beating the Arab armies with second-hand WWII surplus material. It made a nice showplace to show the superiority of our arms, training and doctrines to attract further buyers and to emasculate the Soviets.

It was a nice little sideshow. That is, it was until the Yom Kippur War. Due to a massive surprise attack and some innovative strategy on the part of the Egyptians, Israel was in a bad way. They needed war supplies (such as missiles, tank parts, etc.) replenished for all of those new goodies we sold them. And they needed them quick. Golda Meir petitioned Nixon. The Arab nations threatened an oil embargo if we got involved. Nixon chose to resupply Israel, Israel was able to counter-attack and push the Arabs out, the Arabs then voted an embargo through OPEC, and thus began our new naive journey into the labyrinth of Middle East politics.

We got the embargo stopped, but oil prices would never be near as low as they were before. We got the Arabs and Israelis to stop 'all-out' combat (although, as a result, terrorism really began to take off in this period). The peace was obtained by paying-off Israel and Egypt and Jordan to become outwardly tolerant of each other (this was the "If we could just find Israel a couple of nice Arab kids to play with, maybe they could start to fit in!" plan). As a result, Israel became a regional military superpower while Egypt and Jordan really started to like the U.S. money and arms (they never really came around to liking Israel, but were willing to put on a facade since the price was right).

The Saudis caught on to this little game early. They didn't need our money. With the new raised oil prices, the Saudi elite and their Sunni cousins in neighboring nations were bathing in unimaginable wealth. And Saudi Arabia could never show tolerance to Israel because of of Islam. But we did have one thing that the Saudis were really interested in: advanced weapons. The kind of stuff, like the AWACS, that we were selling to Israel. Even at that time (early 80's), the Saudis were becoming concerned with the military build-up of their crackpot poorer relations in the North (Iraq and Syria). The Saudis were more concerned with these than they were with Israel. They weren't exactly unhappy when Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear plant in the early 80's (they just wished that it had been someone other than "those" infidels).

And the Saudis, representing their neighboring distant cousins in the oil rich south, were also concerned with Iran and the Shi'ites. There were and are a lot of Shit'ites who work menial jobs in the oil rich countries of the Middle East. In some places, they make up the majority of the population. But they don't have the money or the power. In fact, there have been many worker uprisings that have been brutally put down in these oil rich countries. The Saudis were concerned that after the Iranian revolution, the Shi'ite Iranians would attempt to export rebellion to the oil rich states. And they did. So, we had something the Saudis wanted. It wasn't enough to get them to shake hands and play nice with Israel. But it was enough to get them to turn their backs to Israel and ignore them. And that has been the way it has stayed for thirty plus years.

Arabs in the oil rich countries who didn't like their nations' politics toward Israel had wonderful outlets to 'spew the Jihad' in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Africa and, after the Gulf War, back at the West. Syria, lacking their former wanna-be fellow bullies from the Arab League, decided it was best just to leave Israel alone, buy up Soviet surplus and build chemical weapons, and terrorize their own people. Iraq, another former wanna-be bully, decided to concentrate on attacking Iran and their own Kurds for awhile. They have a lot of Shi'ites in Iraq and it made sense to make an impression on them about how powerful their government was compared to Iran. They also decided to buy up Soviet surplus while building chemical weapons. But then they tried to build "nucyuhlar weapons of mass destruction" to intimidate their rich cousins to the south into sharing the dough. The Saudis and their cousins had no issue at all about calling the U.S. to spank Iraq when they got too big for their britches and invaded Kuwait. Heck, they were even willing to host troops and bankroll most of it. And when we came back and invaded Iraq a decade later, the Saudi king was even willing to hold hands an lip kiss George Dubya in public! But they still won't make nice with Israel... and no one really expects them to or cares anymore.

And all of this began with one decision by Richard Nixon in 1973. And that is why we have cheap oil prices now. Having got the feared Iraqis out of the picture, now the Saudis can concentrate on Iran and force them to stop inspiring the scum non-Sunni peasant workers to revolt. And they do this by flooding the market with oil to undercut Iranian oil profits now that sanctions are being lifted.

Something to think about the next time you fill up.

Rep.

One of the best posts I have ever read here.

The United States was very, very close to going to war over the '73 OPEC oil embargo.  That would have been a shit storm of epic proportions. 

[Bengalzona]

(01-07-2016, 02:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Rep.

One of the best posts I have ever read here.

The United States was very, very close to going to war over the '73 OPEC oil embargo.  That would have been a shit storm of epic proportions. 

Thank you.

You and I are old enough to remember most of this stuff when it happened.

Our ground troops in the Middle East in '73 would have been an utter disaster on many levels. It would take another 15 years of rebuilding before any sane person could even consider it.

[BengalHawk62]

(01-06-2016, 11:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is that Hayden Fry on your avatar?

Yes. Yes it is. 

[fredtoast]

(01-07-2016, 12:16 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Our ground troops in the Middle East in '73 would have been an utter disaster on many levels. It would take another 15 years of rebuilding before any sane person could even consider it.

I saw an interview with Kissenger a few years ago and he said all the plans were in place and they were working on how to convince the American people that a non-violent threat to our economy was a threat to our national security equal to "an act of war".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-07-2016, 01:55 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Yes. Yes it is. 

I lived in Cedar Rapids from 81-84 and that guy was almost a god in Iowa.  One of my friends was Hayden Fry for Halloween.  I saw that avatar and immediately remembered all of that.