Equality Act and related conservative outrage over treating LGBT folk as humans

[Mickeypoo]

(02-25-2021, 04:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are admitting you are sexually attracted to both sexes?

I am?     

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-25-2021, 03:20 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Why? If you go out with a woman and she gets your willy hard, what's it matter?

This is certainly a dicey area, but I don't think you're being entirely fair here.  If I'm with a person who conducts themselves as a woman and dresses in traditionally feminine clothing this would naturally lead me to believe this person was a biological woman.  If I act on that assumption and engage in physical activity with them only to find they have male genitalia I have been deceived into engaging in said activity with a person I would otherwise have chose not to due to my being attracted to biological females.  Being upset by this deception does not make one transphobic.  

This, I think, is the biggest self inflicted wound of the trans movement.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say that the above scenario would make a person transphobic.  Why, because that's a woman's penis according to them.  Being attracted to someone and then not being attracted to them once you realize they are not what you thought they were does not make one a bigot.  I'm not speaking to the person in this thread in particular, but the concept in general.  I think the assertion otherwise is the biggest obstacle to general acceptance of trans people.  People shouldn't be labeled a bigot because they have sexual preferences.

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2021, 05:39 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I am?     

I mean, if sex is a dichotomy and you don't consider the person to be a woman, if she got your willy hard then you were sexually attracted to a man by your own logic.

(02-25-2021, 06:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is certainly a dicey area, but I don't think you're being entirely fair here.  If I'm with a person who conducts themselves as a woman and dresses in traditionally feminine clothing this would naturally lead me to believe this person was a biological woman.  If I act on that assumption and engage in physical activity with them only to find they have male genitalia I have been deceived into engaging in said activity with a person I would otherwise have chose not to due to my being attracted to biological females.  Being upset by this deception does not make one transphobic.  

This, I think, is the biggest self inflicted wound of the trans movement.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say that the above scenario would make a person transphobic.  Why, because that's a woman's penis according to them.  Being attracted to someone and then not being attracted to them once you realize they are not what you thought they were does not make one a bigot.  I'm not speaking to the person in this thread in particular, but the concept in general.  I think the assertion otherwise is the biggest obstacle to general acceptance of trans people.  People shouldn't be labeled a bigot because they have sexual preferences.

Admittedly, I was typing that with my tongue planted firmly in cheek. I'm not going to say that I don't agree with my statement, but I know that the whole "surprise!" situation wouldn't be good.

[CJD]

(02-25-2021, 05:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: Reminds of the "men" who hit on a transvestite or cross dresser and then gets angry and beat/kills them because they can't deal with their own attraction to them.

Yea, getting some serious "trans panic" vibes from some people in here. Luckily, I think trans people have gotten pretty good at scoping these people out with some very basic "getting to know you" questions. So the idea that a trans person would go out with them is pretty unlikely past the first few conversations, and it almost certainly would never get to anything physical until the trans person knows that they are safe with that person (it's sad that they have to take those precautions, but it is the world we live in, unfortunately). 

Transphobes are working so hard trying to avoid dating trans people, they don't seem to realize that trans people are almost certainly working to avoid them even harder.

Also of note, I happen to have 3 or 4 trans friends (and follow multiple trans influencers) and they are all extremely open and happy to discuss their identity. Not a single one is trying to hide anything about themselves.

This idea that trans people are deceitful is one of the most harmful stereotypes in existence right now. Lindsay Ellis actually just did a video on how movies and pop culture have done a really bad job of properly representing trans people until maaaaaaybe a few years ago (and even now, there are still cases of bad representation) and how media has skewed the acceptance of trans people because of it. She focuses a lot on the prominence of the "deceitful trans" trope and how harmful it is.

It's here, if you're interested.

[fredtoast]

I support equal rights for transgender people.  I have a transgender son.  But even I see a problem with starting a romantic relationship without telling the other person you are transgender.

But as Crazydawg said, it just does not happen that often because most trans people are pretty open about it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-25-2021, 06:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Yea, getting some serious "trans panic" vibes from some people in here. Luckily, I think trans people have gotten pretty good at scoping these people out with some very basic "getting to know you" questions. So the idea that a trans person would go out with them is pretty unlikely past the first few conversations, and it almost certainly would never get to anything physical until the trans person knows that they are safe with that person (it's sad that they have to take those precautions, but it is the world we live in, unfortunately). 

Transphobes are working so hard trying to avoid dating trans people, they don't seem to realize that trans people are almost certainly working to avoid them even harder.

Also of note, I happen to have 3 or 4 trans friends (and follow multiple trans influencers) and they are all extremely open and happy to discuss their identity. Not a single one is trying to hide anything about themselves.

This idea that trans people are deceitful is one of the most harmful stereotypes in existence right now. Lindsay Ellis actually just did a video on how movies and pop culture have done a really bad job of properly representing trans people until maaaaaaybe a few years ago (and even now, there are still cases of bad representation) and how media has skewed the acceptance of trans people because of it. She focuses a lot on the prominence of the "deceitful trans" trope and how harmful it is.

It's here, if you're interested.

I hope you don't misunderstand my above post.  I do not think that deception is a willful plan the vast majority of the time, but it can happen incidentally or even by mistake.  I would never condone someone getting violent over such deception, even if it was deliberate.  What I don't think is fair is labeling someone transphobic because they no longer are physically attracted to someone once the find out they are trans.  That's not fair at all IMO.  A straight man not finding another person's penis to be sexually attractive is not phobia, it's sexual preference.

[BmorePat87]

Updated the thread name.

Equality Act passed the House. On to the Senate.

[CJD]

(02-25-2021, 07:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hope you don't misunderstand my above post.  I do not think that deception is a willful plan the vast majority of the time, but it can happen incidentally or even by mistake.  I would never condone someone getting violent over such deception, even if it was deliberate.  What I don't think is fair is labeling someone transphobic because they no longer are physically attracted to someone once the find out they are trans.  That's not fair at all IMO.  A straight man not finding another person's penis to be sexually attractive is not phobia, it's sexual preference.

I didn't see your post when I made mine. I don't think what you said was transphobic. Dating a trans person who has not had bottom surgery (which is expensive as all get out) without knowing can be a surprise and I think trans people would understand if you are not sexually attracted to someone with a penis (or vagina in the opposite case). The obvious caveat, as I said, is I don't think trans people would spring that on people during sex. If you are getting to that point with a trans person, they likely have already talked about their identity long beforehand and, if it was not something you were looking for, you would have broken it off before it got to that level. People like to think of the "Crying Game" trope of taking a trans woman's pants off and - SURPRISE - it's a dick! 
*Cue the cis man vomiting at the idea of kissing a "man"*

I just don't think that happens. But I understand what you're saying. People often date as much for physical attraction as they do for creating a family so if you want children who are biologically yours, you would obviously not want to date someone who you can't have kids with. But I think the big problem is the panic surrounding that discovery, rather than the statement of "I'm sorry, I prefer someone with a vagina/penis etc."

Now, if a hypothetical person, upon learning of a Trans woman's identity,  said something like "I'm attracted to women, not men." Then I believe that is transphobic but I don't believe that is the scenario you're talking about.

[Mickeypoo]

I just want to make something very clear and people can believe what they want. My comments were not meant to be "phobic" in any way. I am not bothered by any of it at all.

I am well acquainted with a person who has fully transitioned. We talk a couple times a week and they are a very cool person and we get along great. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Gayness also does not bother me at all. I literally don't care as long as they are a good person and treat me with respect. I will be friends with anyone, from anywhere no matter the color of their skin or sexual preference.

You can choose to believe me or not, I don't care, but that is the truth.

[Mickeypoo]

(02-25-2021, 07:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hope you don't misunderstand my above post.  I do not think that deception is a willful plan the vast majority of the time, but it can happen incidentally or even by mistake.  I would never condone someone getting violent over such deception, even if it was deliberate.  What I don't think is fair is labeling someone transphobic because they no longer are physically attracted to someone once the find out they are trans.  That's not fair at all IMO.  A straight man not finding another person's penis to be sexually attractive is not phobia, it's sexual preference.

And I will add to my previous post that I was not saying trans people where trying to be deceitful or trick anyone.

[Mickeypoo]

(02-25-2021, 08:25 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I didn't see your post when I made mine. I don't think what you said was transphobic. Dating a trans person who has not had bottom surgery (which is expensive as all get out) without knowing can be a surprise and I think trans people would understand if you are not sexually attracted to someone with a penis (or vagina in the opposite case). The obvious caveat, as I said, is I don't think trans people would spring that on people during sex. If you are getting to that point with a trans person, they likely have already talked about their identity long beforehand and, if it was not something you were looking for, you would have broken it off before it got to that level. People like to think of the "Crying Game" trope of taking a trans woman's pants off and - SURPRISE - it's a dick! 
*Cue the cis man vomiting at the idea of kissing a "man"*

I just don't think that happens. But I understand what you're saying. People often date as much for physical attraction as they do for creating a family so if you want children who are biologically yours, you would obviously not want to date someone who you can't have kids with. But I think the big problem is the panic surrounding that discovery, rather than the statement of "I'm sorry, I prefer someone with a vagina/penis etc."

Now, if a hypothetical person, upon learning of a Trans woman's identity,  said something like "I'm attracted to women, not men." Then I believe that is transphobic but I don't believe that is the scenario you're talking about.

Why is that transphobic?

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2021, 07:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Updated the thread name.

Equality Act passed the House. On to the Senate.

This will be a good example of how our political system works.

I'd say that well over 90% of the bill is good law supported by anyone who believes in equal protection under the law.  But one issue that amounts to less than 1% of the cases covered involves transgender women in sports.  Just watch how the Republicans will try to use this 1% issue to derail the entire bill.

The bill passed the House easily but it will need bipartisan support to avoid a filibuster in the Senate.  So should the Democrats negotiate and compromise on the 1% issue of transgender women in sports in order to get the rest of the bill passed?  They could still continue to work on the complex issue of transgender women in sports, but sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot.