For-Profit Higher Education Crackdown

[Belsnickel]

For a while now there has been a battle being waged against the for-profit higher education industry. Schools like Strayer, Kaplan, University of Phoenix, ITT Technical Institute, etc., have all been under intensified scrutiny. There are a number of reasons that this has been going on, but the tl;dr version is that the DoE, Congress, and a lot of members of the public feel that these schools prey on students and essentially fraud the system to receive federal funds and the high default rate on student loans from their graduates point to the schools not providing an education that will benefit the students.

ITT Tech has been one of the offenders that has brought all of this to the forefront. They have been the focus of investigations since at least 1998. As of 25 August the DoE banned them from enrolling new students with federal aid. They announced on 30 August that they would continue on with their current students, but would no longer be enrolling new students. As of today they have announced they will be closing their campuses.

So what does this mean going forward? Is this just the first step in what will be a continued effort to crack down on for-profit higher education? What do you think about the current students and the employees that will feel the effects of this action?

[McC]

(09-06-2016, 10:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: For a while now there has been a battle being waged against the for-profit higher education industry. Schools like Strayer, Kaplan, University of Phoenix, ITT Technical Institute, etc., have all been under intensified scrutiny. There are a number of reasons that this has been going on, but the tl;dr version is that the DoE, Congress, and a lot of members of the public feel that these schools prey on students and essentially fraud the system to receive federal funds and the high default rate on student loans from their graduates point to the schools not providing an education that will benefit the students.

ITT Tech has been one of the offenders that has brought all of this to the forefront. They have been the focus of investigations since at least 1998. As of 25 August the DoE banned them from enrolling new students with federal aid. They announced on 30 August that they would continue on with their current students, but would no longer be enrolling new students. As of today they have announced they will be closing their campuses.

So what does this mean going forward? Is this just the first step in what will be a continued effort to crack down on for-profit higher education? What do you think about the current students and the employees that will feel the effects of this action?

Isn't all higher education "for profit?"

[*michaelsean*]

I know Hillary is against all the ones that don't pay her husband eight figures over a few years.

To the topic, I have no problem with a for profit institution that does its job, but we shouldn't be giving loans to students who attend schools that don't produce results. I have an ITT Tech just down the street from my house. Guess it won't be there for long.

[Belsnickel]

(09-06-2016, 10:13 AM)McC Wrote: Isn't all higher education "for profit?"

No.

[McC]

(09-06-2016, 10:22 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: No.

What institutions are not making a profit?

[Benton]

(09-06-2016, 10:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: For a while now there has been a battle being waged against the for-profit higher education industry. Schools like Strayer, Kaplan, University of Phoenix, ITT Technical Institute, etc., have all been under intensified scrutiny. There are a number of reasons that this has been going on, but the tl;dr version is that the DoE, Congress, and a lot of members of the public feel that these schools prey on students and essentially fraud the system to receive federal funds and the high default rate on student loans from their graduates point to the schools not providing an education that will benefit the students.

ITT Tech has been one of the offenders that has brought all of this to the forefront. They have been the focus of investigations since at least 1998. As of 25 August the DoE banned them from enrolling new students with federal aid. They announced on 30 August that they would continue on with their current students, but would no longer be enrolling new students. As of today they have announced they will be closing their campuses.

So what does this mean going forward? Is this just the first step in what will be a continued effort to crack down on for-profit higher education? What do you think about the current students and the employees that will feel the effects of this action?

I dunno. I've known a few people that went through those places that are doing pretty good. My roommate in college dropped out after the first semester. He went to ITT Tech and they got him a pretty decent job working for the military (not in, but a company contracted by them). On the other side, there's lots of folks with more typical degrees working at gas stations or selling used cars as colleges don't do the greatest job of giving all students the skills and opportunities necessary for a job in their field, or their field is already saturated.

Personally, I think it'll be worse for some students it would have helped who don't do well in the traditional college environment.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-06-2016, 10:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: For a while now there has been a battle being waged against the for-profit higher education industry. Schools like Strayer, Kaplan, University of Phoenix, ITT Technical Institute, etc., have all been under intensified scrutiny. There are a number of reasons that this has been going on, but the tl;dr version is that the DoE, Congress, and a lot of members of the public feel that these schools prey on students and essentially fraud the system to receive federal funds and the high default rate on student loans from their graduates point to the schools not providing an education that will benefit the students.

ITT Tech has been one of the offenders that has brought all of this to the forefront. They have been the focus of investigations since at least 1998. As of 25 August the DoE banned them from enrolling new students with federal aid. They announced on 30 August that they would continue on with their current students, but would no longer be enrolling new students. As of today they have announced they will be closing their campuses.

So what does this mean going forward? Is this just the first step in what will be a continued effort to crack down on for-profit higher education? What do you think about the current students and the employees that will feel the effects of this action?

This is a shame, I always thought these schools were a good idea especially for working adults.  College isn't for everyone, and I think many could benefit from a solid trade school of some sort.  I don't know if some colleges do this or not, but I always thought they (colleges) should offer trade schools as well as traditional academics.  I know a lot of colleges offer trade type learning, but to me it seems that it's usually in the medical field like pharmacy tech, ex-ray tech, bill and coding...etc.  They should offer more IMO such as HVAC, plumbing, and electrical.  Maybe even pair it with a business degree?   Maybe they already do this and I'm just out of the loop.  It's been a very long time since I've stepped in a class room.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-06-2016, 10:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: the tl;dr version is that the DoE, Congress, and a lot of members of the public feel that these schools prey on students and essentially fraud the system to receive federal funds and the high default rate on student loans from their graduates point to the schools not providing an education that will benefit the students.

Care to elaborate on more specifics. I'm especially interested in things that the for-profit schools do that the other schools do not.

[Belsnickel]

(09-06-2016, 10:14 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I know Hillary is against all the ones that don't pay her husband eight figures over a few years.schools that don't produce results. I have an ITT Tech just down the street from my house. Guess it won't be there for long.

Here I was trying to have a conversation about something not related to the current circus.

(09-06-2016, 10:14 AM)michaelsean Wrote: To the topic, I have no problem with a for profit institution that does its job, but we shouldn't be giving loans to students who attend schools that don't produce results. I have an ITT Tech just down the street from my house. Guess it won't be there for long.

This is the crux of it all, though. The contention is that these schools aren't doing their jobs. Most students that come out of these institutions are not very well educated according to a lot of people.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-06-2016, 12:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here I was trying to have a conversation about something not related to the current circus.


This is the crux of it all, though. The contention is that these schools aren't doing their jobs. Most students that come out of these institutions are not very well educated.

But how much of that is the school's fault? I mean, the student has SOME (most?) of the responsibility of getting an education, though, I acknowledge the school has the job of making sure they're providing an actual education.

I know, based on all the commercials I see, that ITT Tech claims to be more of a trade school where you learn to become an electrician or mechanic versus learning a degree. So, does ITT Tech not providing that type of education? Like are people learning to be a mechanic, graduating and then finding out that they don't know as much as they should to fix vehicles?

[Belsnickel]

(09-06-2016, 10:32 AM)McC Wrote: What institutions are not making a profit?

The vast majority of them.

(09-06-2016, 10:42 AM)Benton Wrote: I dunno. I've known a few people that went through those places that are doing pretty good. My roommate in college dropped out after the first semester. He went to ITT Tech and they got him a pretty decent job working for the military (not in, but a company contracted by them). On the other side, there's lots of folks with more typical degrees working at gas stations or selling used cars as colleges don't do the greatest job of giving all students the skills and opportunities necessary for a job in their field, or their field is already saturated.

Personally, I think it'll be worse for some students it would have helped who don't do well in the traditional college environment.

I have a degree in accounting from a for-profit, and I could take my CPA exam if I felt so inclined. I learned a lot and know others in the same boat. That being said, just like anything, it is all a matter of what you put into it.

(09-06-2016, 11:58 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: This is a shame, I always thought these schools were a good idea especially for working adults.  College isn't for everyone, and I think many could benefit from a solid trade school of some sort.  I don't know if some colleges do this or not, but I always thought they (colleges) should offer trade schools as well as traditional academics.  I know a lot of colleges offer trade type learning, but to me it seems that it's usually in the medical field like pharmacy tech, ex-ray tech, bill and coding...etc.  They should offer more IMO such as HVAC, plumbing, and electrical.  Maybe even pair it with a business degree?   Maybe they already do this and I'm just out of the loop.  It's been a very long time since I've stepped in a class room.

They are a good option for working adults. I'm more in the line of thinking that they could benefit from more regulations and better accreditation processes because of some issues I know of.

(09-06-2016, 12:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Care to elaborate on more specifics. I'm especially interested in things that the for-profit schools do that the other schools do not.

So here is where my opinion on some of it can really come into play. Really it all boils down to two things: they are for-profit, and intellectual snobbery.

The accreditation system for for-profit colleges and universities is definitely less rigorous than those of other institutions. There are also higher rates of what are sometimes referred to as "Pell jumpers." These are students that stick around just long enough to get their Pell grant money, and then drop out, taking the cash with them. For-profit schools have been historically worse at handling that situation. There is also less help available to the students, at least based on my experiences.

All of that being said, a student still has to put in the effort to get the degree. It's not as rigorous as a traditional institution, but some classes in those can be a joke sometimes as well. The big argument a lot of people have is that their degrees aren't taken seriously by some employers, which is only being made worse with all of this. They aren't getting jobs, they are defaulting on loans, and they are blaming the system. In reality, it is academic snobbery more than anything else. There are some things that should be changed, but they don't deserve the vilification they often get.

[BmorePat87]

I was offered a job at ITT before I worked in schools. What was described to me as being an "academic advisor" position was in reality a sales position. My job was to find people to come to the school, have them give me leads (friends or family who want to further their education), and get them to come back year after year.

I then saw their wall of success. So many Geek Squad agents. I was working at Best Buy at the time and knew that you didn't need schooling to work for Geek Squad.

It's all a scam.

On the other hand, I used Phoenix to get two classes out of the way for certification at work. They were actual undergrad classes for a good price. Their advisors weren't trying to get me to sign up for as many classes as possible. Good experience.

[Belsnickel]

(09-06-2016, 01:04 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I was offered a job at ITT before I worked in schools. What was described to me as being an "academic advisor" position was in reality a sales position. My job was to find people to come to the school, have them give me leads (friends or family who want to further their education), and get them to come back year after year.

I then saw their wall of success. So many Geek Squad agents. I was working at Best Buy at the time and knew that you didn't need schooling to work for Geek Squad.

It's all a scam.

On the other hand, I used Phoenix to get two classes out of the way for certification at work. They were actual undergrad classes for a good price. Their advisors weren't trying to get me to sign up for as many classes as possible. Good experience.

Eh, the sales pitch doesn't bother me to much. It is for-profit so it seems shady, but in truth it is no different than what admissions offices will do in other institutions. I've been working in higher ed long enough at this point that I have witnessed some pretty cringe-worthy sales pitches from schools with good reputations. It just sounds like that job would have been advisor and admissions in one.

[BmorePat87]

(09-06-2016, 01:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, the sales pitch doesn't bother me to much. It is for-profit so it seems shady, but in truth it is no different than what admissions offices will do in other institutions. I've been working in higher ed long enough at this point that I have witnessed some pretty cringe-worthy sales pitches from schools with good reputations. It just sounds like that job would have been advisor and admissions in one.

I guess the bad part is that these loans have higher rates and the product isn't as good. These students are less likely to pay them back and aren't getting jobs that warrant these education costs.

then again, some undergrad degrees are almost useless

[Au165]

(09-06-2016, 02:00 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: then again, some undergrad degrees are almost useless

This is my issue. If a university offers degrees in women's studies, leisure studies, etc. they are just as guilty of providing an education with no employable future as a degree from a for profit institution that may not adequately prepare you for your trade.

[JustWinBaby]

I assume some for-profit "universities" are among the absolute worst.

But I would like to see a comparison with the bottom 1/2 or bottom 1/3 of colleges and universities that they compete with.

[fredtoast]

The cost of a college degree has gotten ridiculous. Something needs to be done.

These "for profit" schools seem like a good idea, but we just need more regulation to make them work properly instead of just take advantage of people desperate for education.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-07-2016, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The cost of a college degree has gotten ridiculous.  Something needs to be done.

These "for profit" schools seem like a good idea, but we just need more regulation to make them work properly instead of just take advantage of people desperate for education.

Yeah.  Strengthen the accredidation or something like that.  

[JustWinBaby]

(09-07-2016, 10:51 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah.  Strengthen the accredidation or something like that.  

There are already, I think, literally thousands of accredited colleges and universities.

When you give out easy money, or free money after Hillary gets elected, thinking everyone is entitled to an advanced degree, guess what will happen?  You have a shortage of schools and so shitty programs will spring up to serve dumb students who shouldn't be going to college, all on the taxpayer dime.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-07-2016, 10:56 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: There are already, I think, literally thousands of accredited colleges and universities.

When you give out easy money, or free money after Hillary gets elected, thinking everyone is entitled to an advanced degree, guess what will happen?  You have a shortage of schools and so shitty programs will spring up to serve dumb students who shouldn't be going to college, all on the taxpayer dime.

The accredidation for these for profit schools.  Make sure they are teaching what they claim they are teaching to the degree that going there is an asset.  And I'm not talking on the public's dime as much as student loans.

Just out of curiosity, are schools that teach you something like hair styling or plumbing or auto repair considered one of these for profits or is that completely different?