German Hostage Found Dead

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-28-2023, 01:39 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm a little late getting back to this, but I have a couple of points worth making:

1. Though you may not see that far down the line, your mention-of-IDF-war-crimes-equates-them-with-Hamas formula paints you into a corner.

It doesn't.

Quote:2. It is predicated on the claim the IDF does not intentionally kill civilians. But it has a history of doing that, and of being accused of doing so by reputable
    witnesses and organizations--including Israeli human rights organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
    In the current conflict, we already see "allegations" of summary execution coming in which align with the aforementioned history. 
    E.g. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-grandfather-describes-killing-his-family-by-israeli-soldiers-2023-12-18/  and 
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city

With all that rock solid evidence I'm amazed the trial hasn't started in The Hauge already.

Quote:3. Your framing of civilian deaths as "engineered" by Hamas or something which only occurs when IDF soldiers "mistake" civilians for combatants does not 
    explain or legitimate the execution of surrendered civilians and combatants. Hamas cannot be the "cause" of a record of war crimes going back over 70 
    years. Attributing reports of war crimes to "Hamas propaganda" is the job of IDF spokespersons, but few international organizations will go along with it. 
    Many Israeli journalists will not either.

Yeah, it does, as I've already explained and you ignore.

Quote:4. By claiming that mention-of-IDF-war-crimes-equates-them-with-Hamas on the assumption that they don't commit war crimes, you've set up a 
    conditional argument (modus ponens) under which the IDF must NECESSARILY be equated with Hamas if it comes out that the IDF does commit war 
    crimes. 

No, making the claim is what does that.  When you have actual hard evidence that the IDF knowingly and intentionally inflicts avoidable civilian casualties let us know.  Until then I will reiterate that anyone attempting to draw parallels between the IDF and the murdering, torturing, rapist dogs of Hamas is an apologist for terrorists.  Still cluttering a thread about the hostages with your garbage, btw.  Do use the megathread to promote your pro-terrorist clap trap.

[Dill]

(12-28-2023, 01:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Pedantry.
You mean more circuitous logic?  Awesome.
You like Nazi analogies, so I will consistently use them against you.  All the rest is more bloviating about why your post actually means something different than what it says.
No, they are a result of radical Islam, which is hardly confined to Gaza or the west bank.  But you recoil from any discussion on that topic so your reticence to acknowledge the obvious is predictable.
More bloviating which does not nothing to address points I actually made.  

A series of emotional reactions.  Nothing refuted. 

The bolded is more permission to "break your own rules."  

You will continue to use Nazi analogies because YOU like them as accusations,  

not because you can shape them into to effective  comparisons which illuminate policies or actions.

[Dill]

(12-28-2023, 02:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, making the claim is what does that.  When you have actual hard evidence that the IDF knowingly and intentionally inflicts avoidable civilian casualties let us know.  Until then I will reiterate that anyone attempting to draw parallels between the IDF and the murdering, torturing, rapist dogs of Hamas is an apologist for terrorists.  Still cluttering a thread about the hostages with your garbage, btw.  Do use the megathread to promote your pro-terrorist clap trap.

Just to be clear. No one is directly and explicitly "drawing parallels" between the IDF and Hamas.

You are claiming that any mention of IDF war crimes creates equivalence, apparently in hopes of preventing any discussion of such crimes.

Maybe you are also now claiming that recognition of IDF war crimes is in itself  "pro-terrorist"? 

Condemning Hamas with no higher goal becomes quickly tedious. If I ceded this thread to your censorship, it would've been dead last week. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-28-2023, 03:13 PM)Dill Wrote: A series of emotional reactions.  Nothing refuted.

No emotion, simply the effort needed to respond yo your overly verbose pablum. 

Quote:The bolded is more permission to "break your own rules."  

You will continue to use Nazi analogies because YOU like them as accusations,  

Actually, no.  I actively dislike them.  But you have stated they're OK, you even approve of people equating Israel with the Nazis.  hence I will routinely use them against you and you only.  

Quote:not because you can shape them into to effective  comparisons which illuminate policies or actions.

Perhaps in your worthless opinion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-28-2023, 03:24 PM)Dill Wrote: Just to be clear. No one is directly and explicitly "drawing parallels" between the IDF and Hamas.

No one except you, you mean.

Quote:You are claiming that any mention of IDF war crimes creates equivalence, apparently in hopes of preventing any discussion of such crimes.

No, I am most pointedly not.

Quote:Maybe you are also now claiming that recognition of IDF war crimes is in itself  "pro-terrorist"? 

Nope.

Quote:Condemning Hamas with no higher goal becomes quickly tedious. If I ceded this thread to your censorship, it would've been dead last week. 

Well, it would have been "dead" until the next hostage turns up murdered by Hamas.  Better dead then twisted to your sick pro-Hamas pontificating though.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

It's literally like he's describing Dill.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/28/opinion/hamas-philosophy-all-civilians-all-children-are-tools-of-war/

But as well as the Hamas supporters and antisemites who hurl accusations against Israel whatever it does, there are also well-meaning people who genuinely do not seem to understand the war that Israel is fighting.

Every time a home is destroyed in Gaza, or a civilian building is targeted much of the world seems bewildered and outraged.

In the process the worst libels against the Jewish state get repeated.

Claims that the Israelis deliberately target civilians.

Claims that Israel is committing war crimes, and more.

Take the case the other week when photos emerged of Hamas terrorists in Gaza stripped to their underwear by the IDF.

People who had no desire to speak up when Israeli women were raped suddenly seemed furious that suspected terrorists might have been stripped down to their underwear.

Of course these online, armchair warriors seem to presume that they themselves are experts in counter-terror techniques.

They seem to assume that there either are no Hamas militants in the Gaza, or that no member of Hamas would ever wear a suicide bomb under their clothes.

Which is the sort of thing that means that IDF soldiers have to get them to strip down.

But worse is when people make claims that the IDF somehow deliberately target civilians.

Even children.

Earlier this week The Post published a story about Hamas hiding explosives in toy boxes.

That is absolutely true and the tip of the iceberg.

The first thing that the outside world does not seem to know is that Hamas routinely uses civilian houses as weapon stores.

This is a complete flouting of the laws of war, including the Geneva conventions which mandate that armies must not use civilian sites for military use.

Major Y and other people on the ground I have spoken with say that they estimate about one in every two or three homes in Gaza they go into has military weaponry, including AK47s, grenades and rocket launchers.

And they routinely find entrances to Hamas’s terror tunnels inside civilian houses.

And not just anywhere, but most often in the children’s bedrooms and even under cots.

Indeed one member of the IDF I spoke with this week says that this is such a pattern that when they search a house they now go straight to the children’s bedrooms to uncover weapons caches and entrances to the tunnels.

They recently found an RPG underneath a baby’s crib.

Furthermore, Major Y says that every single mosque they go into has a Hamas weapons store.

As has every UN school that they go into. Again this violates every rule of war.

Hamas use places of worship — while pretending to be such “devout” Muslims — because they know the Israelis will not target their places of worship.

They use schools as arms dumps because they know that if Israel targets an empty school the world will go berserk.

It is a cynical tactic, that of course puts at risk the very Palestinians who Hamas pretend to be representing.

According to the Major, “every school and kindergarten we go into we find guns in the basement. In each one we found more than ten AK47s, machine guns and grenades.”

And that’s when Hamas terrorists are not there.

On the ground, amid the intense fighting in the south of Gaza, the major tells me the sort of things he has encountered.

On one occasion recently his unit spotted an old lady in a wheelchair alone on a street corner in the south of Gaza.

They approached the elderly lady “who looked like my grandmother” according to the major.

And as they approached her they were suddenly fired on by a Hamas terrorist.

He had placed himself under her wheelchair in order to fire on the Israeli soldiers.

This is the Hamas that pretends to care for Palestinians but would even use an elderly disabled Palestinian woman as a human shield.

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On another occasion recently the major says that his unit was beside an UNWRA school.

The soldiers saw a 13-year old boy running with a bag near one of the schools.

He put it down and ran away.

A few minutes later it detonated, badly wounding one of the Israeli soldiers nearby.

When people ask how Israel could treat even some children as potential terrorists, this is why.

As the major said, Hamas didn’t think for a moment “about the Palestinian civilians” who were nearby when the bomb went off.

I ask about the claims that Israeli troops have to treat even people coming towards them with white flags with suspicion.

I have seen this myself in the Gaza — where the IDF ask people to step forward very slowly even when are waving white flags.

The major says that on many occasions in recent weeks he has seen Hamas use precisely these people to carry out attacks.

Recently he says “a group of old women and old men” came out of a building waving a white flag.

Then someone came out from within their ranks and started shooting at the soldiers.

Because of the civilians the Israelis did not shoot back at the terrorist.

In other words, the Israelis expressed more care for the Palestinian civilians than this Palestinian terrorist. Situations like this happen “every day” says the major.

Add to this the rockets and grenades they routinely uncover in UNWRA and other UN bags.

And the tunnel entrances and weapons stores are everywhere.

One tunnel entrance was just found in a school’s playing fields.

[Dill]

(12-29-2023, 02:29 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's literally like he's describing Dill.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/28/opinion/hamas-philosophy-all-civilians-all-children-are-tools-of-war/

LOL you found a New York Post article which agreed with your feelings,

and posted it without vetting any of its claims. 

Did you even glance at the list of IDF war crimes complied on Wikipedia? 

They were not investigated by "arm chair warriors." 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-29-2023, 02:43 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL you found a New York Post article which agreed with your feelings,

and posted it without vetting any of its claims. 

Did you even glance at the list of IDF war crimes complied on Wikipedia? 

They were not investigated by "arm chair warriors." 

I posted an article by an esteemed and highly knowledgeable journalist.  The publication itself is irrelevant, and you only mention it as you have no rebuttal of substance.  Attacking the source and not the substance of the article is rather revealing of how weak you know your position to be.  But mitigating the acts of terrorists was always a bit of a tightrope walk, and you fell off ages ago.

[Dill]

(12-28-2023, 06:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The bolded is more permission to "break your own rules."  
You will continue to use Nazi analogies because YOU like them as accusations,  

Actually, no.  I actively dislike them.  But you have stated they're OK, you even approve of people equating Israel with the Nazis.  hence I will routinely use them against you and you only.  

I've explained why people make comparisons between Israel and the Nazi state. 

You've not explained whether, which, or where their analogies fail. 

I have said I don't think it appropriate to apply Nazi analogies to forum members. 

And I have never approved of them anywhere as form of personal attack. 

But as you say Nazi analogies are intrinsically wrong and should never be used,

it would be logically inconsistent then to use them "against me and me only" even if I "liked" them.

As I said, you are simply giving yourself permission to call Nazi analogies bad in principle 

while inconsistently continuing to use them for the worst possible reason--as a form of personal attack.

So as I said, you are only looking to (mis)construct outside permission to do what you want to do, have been doing all along.

PS you have still not responded to my arguments above as arguments--just scattershot angry comments and personal attack. 
And an NYP article which calls charges of IDF war crimes "libel" without addressing specific charges, but helps you imagine
how careful the IDF must be given the danger posed by children and other civilians. "Armchair warriors" are upset because
captives are stripped, not because they are summarily executed afterwards. No mention of the IDF using civilians, including
children, as human shields both in combat and non-combat environments. You've had a chance to learn about all that, but decided not to.  

[Dill]

(12-29-2023, 03:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I posted an article by an esteemed and highly knowledgeable journalist.  The publication itself is irrelevant, and you only mention it as you have no rebuttal of substance.  Attacking the source and not the substance of the article is rather revealing of how weak you know your position to be.  But mitigating the acts of terrorists was always a bit of a tightrope walk, and you fell off ages ago.

I didn't "attack the source." I'm not the guy who dismisses other arguments/information with labels like "far left."

I noted that, though you have been given access to knowledge of IDF war crimes,
which could be used to vet the claims in the article you posted,
you chose not to do that. Instead you ran to find something that confirmed your bias,
an article by "an esteemed and highly knowledgeable journalist"--and suddenly the source is relevant. 

If this journalist is "knowledgeable," as you say, then he should know of the 
long history of investigations into IDF use of children as human shields, but declined to mention that.
You can't nullify that with stories of bombs in toy boxes. 

And you continue to claim that contesting propaganda is "mitigating the acts of terrorists." 

When I say that your article does not address specific charges, I mean ones like those in the links I posted,
the reports of 11 men separated from their families and then killed. Summary execution.
You can't explain that away with stories about Hamas using civilians waving white flags as human shields. 

So after mustering only quips and personal attacks against me, plus a very one-sided article whose claims you cannot yourself assess, 
but accept as face value, as "substance," you conclude my position, which you cannot refute directly, is "weak."  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-29-2023, 03:58 PM)Dill Wrote: I didn't "attack the source." I'm not the guy who dismisses other arguments/information with labels like "far left."

Suuuuurrrreee, you didn't.

Quote:I noted that, though you have been given access to knowledge of IDF war crimes,
which could be used to vet the claims in the article you posted,
you chose not to do that. Instead you ran to find something that confirmed your bias,
an article by "an esteemed and highly knowledgeable journalist"--and suddenly the source is relevant. 

Yes, you gave me an article with anecdotal evidence and a UN report which alleges something they obviously couldn't prove.

Quote:If this journalist is "knowledgeable," as you say, then he should know of the 
long history of investigations into IDF use of children as human shields, but declined to mention that.
You can't nullify that with stories of bombs in toy boxes. 

Nullify is not the point, using them to mitigate the actions of Hamas, which is your entire goal in this, and every thread on this topic.

Quote:And you continue to claim that contesting propaganda is "mitigating the acts of terrorists." 

What propaganda?  You mean like Israel intentionally bombed a hospital?  Dear lord, you're flailing now.

Quote:When I say that your article does not address specific charges, I mean ones like those in the links I posted,
the reports of 11 men separated from their families and then killed. Summary execution.
You can't explain that away with stories about Hamas using civilians waving white flags as human shields. 

Yes, it was already addressed.  Explaining it away isn't a goal regardless.  Let's say it happened exactly as you claim it did.  It does absolutely nothing to mitigate, or excuse, the actions of Hamas, which is your entire goal.  You claim otherwise, but your agenda is plain to see.  Hell, you got called out for your blatant anti-Israel bias in a thread a few weeks before the Hamas dogs gang raped, murdered and kidnapped over a thousand civilians.  This is just par for the course for you.

Quote:So after mustering only quips and personal attacks against me, plus a very one-sided article whose claims you cannot yourself assess, 
but accept as face value, as "substance," you conclude my position, which you cannot refute directly, is "weak."  

You have literally not made one post on atrocities committed by Hamas.  Every single post is an attempt to put Israel on equal footing as bad actor.  Your posting history is replete with mitigating the actions of Islamic extremists, routinely blaming their actions on Israel or western policies/actions.  In short, your bigotry doesn't allow for any discussion on this topic that doesn't include Israel and the west as an equal contributor to atrocities committed by Islamic extremists.  You're a pure apologist who thinks comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is entirely appropriate.  And you cap it off by hijacking a thread on Hamas victims to promote your obscene position, despite there being an entire other thread you could be using.  But, as already stated, we know why you want to shift the topic away from the hostages who were tortured, gang raped and murdered.

I'll be signing off for the weekend now, so you'll have to wait until 01/02/24 for a response to your next vomit inducing word salad.