German Hostage Found Dead

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-19-2023, 05:07 PM)Dill Wrote: You always start with how I make you feel.

Declaring your statement to be pompous is not my sharing my feelings.  

Quote:No "admission" here that I am "attempting" to draw equivalence, etc. You can't just manipulate your way to a valid conclusion by thanking me for what I have not "admitted" instead of addressing the reasons for my statement.  Talking "as if" I had done that is just a form of gaslighting. 

Except you literally tried to draw an equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.  It's literally right there for all to see.

Quote:My argument is that no one can accurately describe, understand, and evaluate events on the ground while adhering to your "no-criticism-of-the-IDF-but-let-your-imagination-fly-with-Hamas" rule. The "equivalence" charge is just an attempt to block criticism and to control discussion by threat of accusation rather than rational, fact-based argument. 

Criticism of the IDF is fine.  Equating their actions to the murdering, torturing, rapist, dogs of Hamas is not.

Quote:Actually, I do consider shooting people trying to surrender a war crime, and at the same time NOT the equivalent of planned torture and and gang rape. But since I am not making that equivalence I don't need to answer for it.  Again, your premise here is that MENTION of IDF war crimes is AUTOMATICALLY "equivalence."  

No, drawing an equivalence is.  Like accusing the IDF of deliberately bombing a hospital in an attempt to make them Hamas' equal regarding treatment of civilians.

Quote:So just another attempt to enforce your "no criticism of IDF" rule--a rule which blocks accurate description and understanding of what's actually happening in this war. It's possible that you just don't get this "accuracy first" standard, and for you all is blame from the get go; so if someone mentions IDF bad behavior, you sincerely cannot see anything but "equivalence!" and rush to prove Hamas is worse; or it's possible you do know, but don't want that standard near this topic. I can't tell. 

I'll repeat, criticism is fine.  When it's a one way street and it's done to mitigate the actions of Hamas or draw an equivalence with them it is not.

Quote:Another firm "NO" here.

Shooting civilians first and asking questions later does not, under current IHL, fall "directly into the realm of accidental killing" any more than does the death of women and children forced to act as human shields or intentionally shelling a refugee camp. 

Ohhh, you were there and know exactly what the soldiers saw?  I'm impressed.  Sadly, when your enemy dresses in civilian clothing and deliberately embeds itself in the civilian populace these kind of tragic accidents are bound to happen.  You're alleging that the IDF soldiers saw civilians, knew they were civilians and thought "eff it" and shot them anyways.  This is why you rightfully face criticism for your posts on the IDF, and Israel in general.

Quote:Yeah "far leftists will blah blah blah"  Can you not, for one post, simply follow an argument and address it as argument without the partisan emotional drama? If you disagree with the priority I place on accurate description over repetitive angry condemnation, then calmly explain in rational and factual terms why that priority is misplaced--preferably without sharing your feelings with "pleasure" or substituting them for proof. Explain, in rational terms, why Hamas' "celebrated killing" should halt any fuller discussion of what is happening to civilians in the war zone. Simply claiming someone is an "apologist false equivocator" for taking in the whole picture does not "expose" anything. Even if you repeat it three times, it remains baseless accusation. God, if only political arguments were really that easy.

I know an officer who shot a younger teenager.  The minor had a airsoft gun but had painted the orange tip of the barrel black.  When he found out he had shot an actually unarmed teenager he was devastated.  According to your twisted and facile logic he is just as guilty of killing an unarmed person as an officer who deliberately and knowingly target an unarmed youth and killed them.

Despite your best efforts your bigotry and bias against Israel bleeds through in this very post.  You assume, in the underlined statement above, that the IDF soldiers saw civilians surrendering and thought it would be a good time to get some target practice in.  Soldiers accidentally fire on their own comrades during a military action, this is especially true in urban warfare.  Would you make the same assumption if an IDF squad fired on and killed three of their own soldiers?  No, you wouldn't.  But you did here, and you did it because you are horribly biased against Israel.  Your entire posting history on this subject screams your bias.

I'm sure you're happy now, as the thread is no longer about the women who were kidnapped, raped and murdered by Hamas.  You've successfully deflected the thread into an anti-Israel/anti IDF thread.  Congratulations, your task is achieved!  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-19-2023, 05:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have created a general Israel/Hamas war superthread to just collect all the odds and ends about the ongoing war.

Eh, no need, Bel.  Dill "likes this thread just fine".

[GMDino]

(12-19-2023, 06:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Eh, no need, Bel.  Dill "likes this thread just fine".

Do you charge him rent for living in your head? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-20-2023, 10:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: Do you charge him rent for living in your head? 

The inflated sense of self importance you two possess is really something to behold.

[GMDino]

(12-20-2023, 01:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The inflated sense of self importance you two possess is really something to behold.

Almost equal to your inability to take a joke. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-20-2023, 02:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Almost equal to your inability to take a joke. 

Yeah, the ninja emoji automatically makes it a joke.  I should have realized it was a joke though, you're right, albeit for the wrong reasons.  It was a post made by you, so of course it was a joke.

[Dill]

(12-19-2023, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, I do consider shooting people trying to surrender a war crime, and at the same time NOT the equivalent of planned torture and and gang rape. But since I am not making that equivalence I don't need to answer for it.  Again, your premise here is that MENTION of IDF war crimes is AUTOMATICALLY "equivalence."  

No, drawing an equivalence is.  Like accusing the IDF of deliberately bombing a hospital in an attempt to make them Hamas' equal regarding treatment of civilians.

I haven't yet accused the IDF of deliberately bombing a hospital. I am arguing against any presumption they would not, given their past history. Until I say the IDF is likely to commit mass rape of Palestinians, murdering the victims afterward, and film the entire process to send to the victims family, then I am not creating an "equivalence" between Hamas and the IDF in its present form, even if the IDF does bomb a hospital. 

Your fear of equivalence here could be partly sincere, given your lack of awareness of the IDF's brutal history in Palestine and Lebanon. 
But there's no good incentive to keep that lack going, or to inhibit others from gaining it--only fear of collapsing your black/white ideological framing.

[Dill]

(12-19-2023, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Declaring your statement to be pompous is not my sharing my feelings.  

You might have a case for "pompous" if I had jumped into this thread laughing at the stupidity of all contributors or if I had told
you that I deal with street people smarter than you everyday, but I've made no such statements, here or anywhere else, to anyone in this forum, ever.

Your "evidence," then, can rest on no specific statement I've made, but only on an overall tone that makes you FEEL diminished.
When you externalize that inner feeling in a public forum, that's sharing, and 
if you attempt to disguise the source by presenting internal feeling as external fact, that's projection. 

(12-19-2023, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except you literally tried to draw an equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.  It's literally right there for all to see.

Criticism of the IDF is fine.  Equating their actions to the murdering, torturing, rapist, dogs of Hamas is not.

What's "right there for all to see" is this statement:

"I do consider shooting people trying to surrender a war crime, and at the same time NOT the equivalent of planned torture and and gang rape" (#117)

and this: 
"Reminding people of the IDF's sordid history of indiscriminate targeting and using women and children as human shields isn't to create "equivalence" but to break what is in effect an ideological constraint on discussion and encourage a more realistic assessment of what is happening in Gaza." 

It is contradictory to say "criticism of the IDF is fine" and then declare criticism "equivalence" to prevent said criticism. 

E.g., You mentioned "torture" this time. Many human rights groups do accuse Israel of torture. That's long standing. 
Is that criticism of the IDF also "fine," or is it also "equating their actions to the murdering, rapist dogs of Hamas"? 

[Dill]

(12-19-2023, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Shooting civilians first and asking questions later does not, under current IHL, fall "directly into the realm of accidental killing" any more than does the death of women and children forced to act as human shields or intentionally shelling a refugee camp. 

Ohhh, you were there and know exactly what the soldiers saw?  I'm impressed.  Sadly, when your enemy dresses in civilian clothing and deliberately embeds itself in the civilian populace these kind of tragic accidents are bound to happen.  You're alleging that the IDF soldiers saw civilians, knew they were civilians and thought "eff it" and shot them anyways.  This is why you rightfully face criticism for your posts on the IDF, and Israel in general.

I know an officer who shot a younger teenager.  The minor had a airsoft gun but had painted the orange tip of the barrel black.  When he found out he had shot an actually unarmed teenager he was devastated.  According to your twisted and facile logic he is just as guilty of killing an unarmed person as an officer who deliberately and knowingly target an unarmed youth and killed them.

There's your rule again--the IDF CANNOT be guilty of shooting unarmed civilians they know are civilians, whatever the facts say.

In their own reports the IDF tells us their soldiers saw three shirtless (to show they were unarmed) civilians WAVING A WHITE FLAG. The shooter says he saw the white flag, not an airsoft gun, and shot anyway. So I'm "alleging" no more and no less than what the IDF is reporting. 

It's "twisted and facile logic" to replace that flag with the fake gun of your cop analogy to pass off the shooting as an understandable mistake by good community servants just doing their job. We should respond to this as we would a cop who shot a shirtless, unarmed teenager carrying a white flag.

I'm also "alleging" that the POLICY of presuming there are "no noncombatants in Gaza" (to quote Dino's article above) and instructions to "shoot everything that moves" explains what happened well enough, and why such incidents are "bound to happen."  The IDF is constantly flagged for shooting unarmed civilians outside war zones, including wounded, unarmed children. Has been for decades. But I'm supposed to believe they are more careful in Gaza after Oct. 7, and with no journalists around to monitor them? So yeah, I do think they it more likely they thought the three were unarmed Palestinian civilians and just shot them anyway, than any other possible explanation.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

As to the actual topic of the thread. Hostages and their families are suing the Red Cross.

https://archive.is/dkdEd (archive link to the NYT's article)

"The lawsuit, filed in Jerusalem District Court on Thursday, says the Red Cross has failed to visit the hostages in captivity to check on their health, provide them with medications and then report back to their relatives on their welfare. The complaint also asserts the Red Cross “did not and is not doing enough to bring about their release.”

Also, a soldier from the battalion that accidentally shot three hostages visited on of the hostages mother.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/soldier-from-battalion-that-mistakenly-shot-hostages-meets-mom-of-one-of-those-killed/

"The soldier’s visit on Thursday came after Iris Haim recorded a message a day earlier for the soldiers who killed her son, telling them that she and her family love them and do not blame them for his death.

In her recorded message on Wednesday to the soldiers, Haim said: “I am Yotam’s mother. I wanted to tell you that I love you very much, and I hug you here from afar. I know that everything that happened is absolutely not your fault, and nobody’s fault except that of Hamas, may their name be wiped out and their memory erased from the earth.”

“And don’t hesitate for a second if you see a terrorist,” she urged. “Don’t think that you killed a hostage deliberately. You have to look after yourselves because only that way can you look after us.”

Odd that she doesn't think the IDF intentionally murdered her son. Others apparently know better.

[Dill]

(12-22-2023, 02:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Odd that she doesn't think the IDF intentionally murdered her son.  Others apparently know better.

No one thinks the IDF intentionally murdered people they thought were Israeli hostages.  

So not odd if the mother doesn't.  Apparently no one knows better; spin unspun.  

To de-obfuscate: 

The issue is whether their "shoot first, ask questions later" policy led to the IDF killing the people they were supposed to rescue. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-22-2023, 03:37 PM)Dill Wrote: No one thinks the IDF intentionally murdered people they thought were Israeli hostages.

First off, congrats on staying on topic for a change.  Refreshing to say the least.  Second, you do think the IDF kills civilians intentionally, more of your false equivalency.  This mother understands what Dill does not, that it is impossible to distinguish between a civilian and a terrorist when the terrorists intentional mingle with the civilian population while wearing civilian attire. 

Quote:So not odd if the mother doesn't.  Apparently no one knows better; spin unspun.  

Actually, mom does know better as explained above.  No need to unspin what was never spun.

Quote:To de-obfuscate: 

The issue is whether their "shoot first, ask questions later" policy led to the IDF killing the people they were supposed to rescue. 

Yes, we know you think the IDF intentionally kills civilians.  You consistently ignore why this occurs, and why Hamas engineers its occurrence at every opportunity.  To actually do so would destroy your ability to equate Hamas and the IDF as equally bad faith actors, or even remotely equivalent, and we know you're not going to let that happen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Another hostage dead, a US citizen (not that that makes their life more, or less important).

https://archive.is/OUcxM

Gadi Haggai, a 73-year-old man taken hostage in the Hamas-led invasion of Israel, is now believed to have died in the Oct. 7 attack, the Hostages and Missing Persons Families Forum said in a statement on Friday.
It said his body was still being held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

It is unknown why Hamas would still be holding on to the body. Maybe his wounds are so horrific they don't want them shown? Yet another deliberate murder by terrorists.

[GMDino]

(12-23-2023, 03:07 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Another hostage dead, a US citizen (not that that makes their life more, or less important).

https://archive.is/OUcxM

Gadi Haggai, a 73-year-old man taken hostage in the Hamas-led invasion of Israel, is now believed to have died in the Oct. 7 attack, the Hostages and Missing Persons Families Forum said in a statement on Friday.
It said his body was still being held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

It is unknown why Hamas would still be holding on to the body.  Maybe his wounds are so horrific they don't want them shown?  Yet another deliberate murder by terrorists.

If this is true I agree it would be weird to keep the body, or even have taken it, if he is already dead.

Quote:The forum said Mr. Haggai, a dual citizen of Israel and the United States, and his wife, Judi Weinstein, were shot during the Hamas terror attack while they were on their regular morning walk in the fields and vineyards of Kibbutz Nir Oz.


Ms. Haggai contacted friends to tell them they had been shot and that her husband was critically injured, the forum said. It said that was the last time anyone in Israel heard from them. Ms. Haggai is still being held captive. Her condition is unknown.

“Gadi was a man full of humor who knew how to make those around him laugh,” Liat Bell Sommer, a spokeswoman for the forum, said in a statement, adding that Mr. Haggai was “a musician at heart, a gifted flutist.”


The forum did not specify how it knew that Mr. Haggai died during the attack.

Seems the forum is a subpage of the Times of Israel and is a conglomeration of stories about the hostages.   Hopefully they are vetted and not publishing everything they are told or hear.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-23-2023, 10:15 AM)GMDino Wrote: If this is true I agree it would be weird to keep the body, or even have taken it, if he is already dead.

Based on the wording of the article I interpreted it as he died on 10/07 after he was already kidnapped.

Quote:Seems the forum is a subpage of the Times of Israel and is a conglomeration of stories about the hostages.   Hopefully they are vetted and not publishing everything they are told or hear.

A fair question, given the amount of disinformation that this conflict has generated.  The following website rates them as high credibility with a slight left leaning bias.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/

Of course, whether this website is credible is another matter entirely.  The did rate Fox News as low credibility and a check of multiple ratings they've assigned would seem to indicate a bit of a left leaning bias.  But everyone can obviously decide for themselves.

[Dill]

Off topic, but to create broader, more accurate context:

Looks like a significant number of Israelis blame IDF policy for the killing of their own hostages.
Critical to this viewpoint is the deliberation required to shoot obviously unarmed people carrying a
white flag, and then killing a wounded hostage after he survived the fist shooting and crawled
into a building crying "help" in Hebrew.

They aren't accepting the "what-can-you-do-when-they-dress-like-civilians" defense. Neither is the UN.

Protesting crowds in Tel Aviv blame the government and the IDF's "shoot first" policy.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostages-killed-idf-white-cloth-protests-netanyahu-rcna130049

Father of Slain Hostages Says IDF Murdered Him.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/father-of-slain-hostage-calls-for-him-to-be-recognized-as-fallen-soldier-he-was-a-fighter/

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-24-2023, 01:59 PM)Dill Wrote: Off topic, but to create broader, more accurate context:

Looks like a significant number of Israelis blame IDF policy for the killing of their own hostages.
Critical to this viewpoint is the deliberation required to shoot obviously unarmed people carrying a
white flag, and then killing a wounded hostage after he survived the fist shooting and crawled
into a building crying "help" in Hebrew.

They aren't accepting the "what-can-you-do-when-they-dress-like-civilians" defense. Neither is the UN.

Protesting crowds in Tel Aviv blame the government and the IDF's "shoot first" policy.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostages-killed-idf-white-cloth-protests-netanyahu-rcna130049

Father of Slain Hostages Says IDF Murdered Him.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/father-of-slain-hostage-calls-for-him-to-be-recognized-as-fallen-soldier-he-was-a-fighter/

The byline from your NBC article,

 "Hundreds took to the streets of Tel Aviv after it emerged that Israel’s soldiers had killed three hostages in Gaza."


Not sure if you know your history, but there were far more than hundreds, fare more, took part in a pro Nazi rally in Manhattan in 1939.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan

More than 20,000 men and women streamed inside and took their seats. The view they had was stunning: Washington was hung between American flags — and swastikas.

Is the act of protest an automatic validation of what is being protested?  I would think not, as the pro-Nazi protest, whose numbers dwarf your example, would illustrate.  As for the father of the slain hostage, his anger is understandable, if misplaced.  His son would never have been in that position except for the terrorist activities of the dogs of Hamas.  But a mourning family member is entitled to mourn as they please and anger is a well known stage of grief.

The interesting thing about your post is that it highlights anti-establishment protest in Israel.  The key point being that such protests are allowed in Israel, where even a small group such as yours can protest vehemently against their own government.  Such cannot be said for Hamas controlled Gaza, where such protests would invite horrible reprisals.  But, please, let us focus on anything but Hamas.

But here we have yet another post of Dill trying to equate the actions of the IDF to Hamas while "not really doing so".  In past posts he has equivocated on this, but in this post, in the underlined, he directly accuses the IDF of intentionally shooting these hostages despite knowing what they were.  I have attempted to address the fog of war that occurs, especially in an urban environment in which the enemy wears civilian clothes and hides among civilians.  But Dill will have none of that.  To him a soldier mistakenly killing a hostage was definitively a deliberate act.  Why, because it gives him, and others like him, the ability to lessen the horrors of Hamas by focusing attention on the IDF and attempting to draw a parallel.  As for my ascribing motives, why not?  Dill opened that gate by ascribing a deliberate motive to the IDF soldiers, so ascribing a deliberate motive to him is more than fair using his own rules.  I have no patience for those who seek to mitigate terrorists by continually trying to focus the lens, and the discussion on anything but the terrorists. 

[Dill]

(12-24-2023, 02:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The byline from your NBC article,
 "Hundreds took to the streets of Tel Aviv after it emerged that Israel’s soldiers had killed three hostages in Gaza."

Not sure if you know your history, but there were far more than hundreds, fare more, took part in a pro Nazi rally in Manhattan in 1939.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan
More than 20,000 men and women streamed inside and took their seats. The view they had was stunning: Washington was hung between American flags — and swastikas.
Is the act of protest an automatic validation of what is being protested?  I would think not, as the pro-Nazi protest, whose numbers dwarf your example, would illustrate.  As for the father of the slain hostage, his anger is understandable, if misplaced.  His son would never have been in that position except for the terrorist activities of the dogs of Hamas.  But a mourning family member is entitled to mourn as they please and anger is a well known stage of grief.

The interesting thing about your post is that it highlights anti-establishment protest in Israel.  The key point being that such protests are allowed in Israel, where even a small group such as yours can protest vehemently against their own government.  Such cannot be said for Hamas controlled Gaza, where such protests would invite horrible reprisals.  But, please, let us focus on anything but Hamas.

A "by line" is a line containing the author of an article.  

Now a separate post to explain why the immaterial points above are immaterial--off topic--as far as my argument goes.

1. Yet another Nazi analogy from the guy who insists people not use them. I'm aware of the rally you refer to, to make the wholly immaterial point that acts of protest  and protestor numbers of  do not validate what they are protesting. ( At the Nazi rally of your analogy there was also a "small group" protesting Nazis.) "Immaterial" because I wasn't claiming that protests/numbers validate what is protested; rather I was establishing THE FACT that many Israelis believe the IDF's callous indifference to human life is to blame for the hostage killings.   My argument depends on 1) the current conception of international human rights, as embodied in International Humanitarian Law, and 2) the facts on the ground, as given us so far. If you are not addressing/disputing either of those bases, then you are not following my argument. 

2.  Hamas did not appear out of nowhere. It is a consequence of brutal military occupation, and Netanyahu's policy of supporting it over democratic opposition, and the IDF's routine disregard for civilian life, not just when fighting Hamas.  But this is easy to miss if you restrict discussion of Hamas to Hamas, and not the conditions which created it. Likely the father the grieving father understands this well enough, so I don't dismiss his anger outright as "misplaced" in some stage of grief.

3.  To address your final non-point--most of my evidence of IDF war crimes comes from the Israeli press, from historical/sociological scholarship produced in Israeli  universities, and from Israeli human rights groups. These are all groups who recognize that Israel's claim to democracy does not entitle it to violate democratic ideals-- even if Hamas is not democratic in practice. All reject your repeatedly defended principle that criticism of the IDF= a claim of equivalence to Hamas. I have expressed my alignment with and admiration for these elements of Israeli society on other threads. There is no "key point" against my argument to be made by reminding me of principles which I affirm and defend in my own posting practice in this forum, and which you oppose in yours. Given that under liberal democracy,  no IDF war crimes can be justified with reference to an adversary's anti-democratic practice; that is the "key point" to emphasize here.  

[Dill]

(12-22-2023, 04:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Second, you do think the IDF kills civilians intentionally, more of your false equivalency.  This mother understands what Dill does not, that it is impossible to distinguish between a civilian and a terrorist when the terrorists intentional mingle with the civilian population while wearing civilian attire. 

Yes, we know you think the IDF intentionally kills civilians.  You consistently ignore why this occurs, and why Hamas engineers its occurrence at every opportunity.  To actually do so would destroy your ability to equate Hamas and the IDF as equally bad faith actors, or even remotely equivalent, and we know you're not going to let that happen.

I'm a little late getting back to this, but I have a couple of points worth making:

1. Though you may not see that far down the line, your mention-of-IDF-war-crimes-equates-them-with-Hamas formula paints you into a corner.

2. It is predicated on the claim the IDF does not intentionally kill civilians. But it has a history of doing that, and of being accused of doing so by reputable
    witnesses and organizations--including Israeli human rights organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
    In the current conflict, we already see "allegations" of summary execution coming in which align with the aforementioned history. 
    E.g. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-grandfather-describes-killing-his-family-by-israeli-soldiers-2023-12-18/  and 
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city

3. Your framing of civilian deaths as "engineered" by Hamas or something which only occurs when IDF soldiers "mistake" civilians for combatants does not 
    explain or legitimate the execution of surrendered civilians and combatants. Hamas cannot be the "cause" of a record of war crimes going back over 70 
    years. Attributing reports of war crimes to "Hamas propaganda" is the job of IDF spokespersons, but few international organizations will go along with it. 
    Many Israeli journalists will not either.

4. By claiming that mention-of-IDF-war-crimes-equates-them-with-Hamas on the assumption that they don't commit war crimes, you've set up a 
    conditional argument (modus ponens) under which the IDF must NECESSARILY be equated with Hamas if it comes out that the IDF does commit war 
    crimes. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-28-2023, 01:38 PM)Dill Wrote: A "by line" is a line containing the author of an article.

Pedantry.
 

Quote:Now a separate post to explain why the immaterial points above are immaterial--off topic--as far as my argument goes.

You mean more circuitous logic?  Awesome.

Quote:1. Yet another Nazi analogy from the guy who insists people not use them. I'm aware of the rally you refer to, to make the wholly immaterial point that acts of protest  and protestor numbers of  do not validate what they are protesting. ( At the Nazi rally of your analogy there was also a "small group" protesting Nazis.) "Immaterial" because I wasn't claiming that protests/numbers validate what is protested; rather I was establishing THE FACT that many Israelis believe the IDF's callous indifference to human life is to blame for the hostage killings.   My argument depends on 1) the current conception of international human rights, as embodied in International Humanitarian Law, and 2) the facts on the ground, as given us so far. If you are not addressing/disputing either of those bases, then you are not following my argument. 

You like Nazi analogies, so I will consistently use them against you.  All the rest is more bloviating about why your post actually means something different than what it says.

Quote:2.  Hamas did not appear out of nowhere. It is a consequence of brutal military occupation, and Netanyahu's policy of supporting it over democratic opposition, and the IDF's routine disregard for civilian life, not just when fighting Hamas.  But this is easy to miss if you restrict discussion of Hamas to Hamas, and not the conditions which created it. Likely the father the grieving father understands this well enough, so I don't dismiss his anger outright as "misplaced" in some stage of grief.

No, they are a result of radical Islam, which is hardly confined to Gaza or the west bank.  But you recoil from any discussion on that topic so your reticence to acknowledge the obvious is predictable.

Quote:3.  To address your final non-point--most of my evidence of IDF war crimes comes from the Israeli press, from historical/sociological scholarship produced in Israeli  universities, and from Israeli human rights groups. These are all groups who recognize that Israel's claim to democracy does not entitle it to violate democratic ideals-- even if Hamas is not democratic in practice. All reject your repeatedly defended principle that criticism of the IDF= a claim of equivalence to Hamas. I have expressed my alignment with and admiration for these elements of Israeli society on other threads. There is no "key point" against my argument to be made by reminding me of principles which I affirm and defend in my own posting practice in this forum, and which you oppose in yours. Given that under liberal democracy,  no IDF war crimes can be justified with reference to an adversary's anti-democratic practice; that is the "key point" to emphasize here.  

More bloviating which does not nothing to address points I actually made.