Gleichschaltung?

[Dill]

(01-28-2017, 01:52 AM)Benton Wrote: what if you didn't want Hillary or trump?

Lesser of two evils.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-28-2017, 02:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Lesser of two evils.

Except I chose neither, and slept like a baby because even if it was going to be a shitty result either way, I didn't compromise my principles.

Lesser of two evils is just such a way to BS away a decision you probably shouldn't have made. As long as people keep being happy with just choosing the lesser of two evils, how can we ever get a choice that isn't evil?

[*jason*]

(01-28-2017, 02:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except I chose neither, and slept like a baby because even if it was going to be a shitty result either way, I didn't compromise my principles.

Lesser of two evils is just such a way to BS away a decision you probably shouldn't have made. As long as people keep being happy with just choosing the lesser of two evils, how can we ever get a choice that isn't evil?

Because the lesser of two evils is the only one with a shot to win. It's been awhile since the last Whig president. I personally don't like the two party system, but no one else has a shot at winning. It's different at the local, and state level, but to me, voting third party for president is the same as abstaining. Don't get me wrong, in the past I've chosen to abstain because I didn't like either candidate. I didn't like Hillary or Trump. I just disliked one of them less.

[CageTheBengal]

(01-28-2017, 01:52 AM)Benton Wrote: what if you didn't want Hillary or trump?

You pick your poison with the greater good in mind.

I get that people weren't crazy about either candidate most people weren't but if you thought Trump was a severe threat to our country there was only one person you could vote for realistically to block him. People had different reasons for voting 3rd party but at the end of the day the results were Trump is president and we have to live with whatever damage he will do. No going back no re-dos it will be a stain on our country forever.

The real fight wasn't just Trump vs Hillary it was Unqualified vs Qualified, Blatant Ignorance vs Intelligence, Disrespect vs Respect, Facts vs Conspiracy and the list goes on because Trump was the least qualified person ever to win the highest office in the land. There was too much at stake to be playing the same old games like all the other election cycles. Just looking at the candidates was only a portion of the battle this time around.

If it was Hillary vs any of the other Republicans I wouldn't feel this way because I think most of them were qualified except maybe Carson and Fiorina. I didn't think those 2 were completely reckless though like Trump.

[CageTheBengal]

(01-28-2017, 02:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except I chose neither, and slept like a baby because even if it was going to be a shitty result either way, I didn't compromise my principles.

Lesser of two evils is just such a way to BS away a decision you probably shouldn't have made. As long as people keep being happy with just choosing the lesser of two evils, how can we ever get a choice that isn't evil?

No it's for people who see the big picture beyond going home and sleeping like a baby.

[GMDino]

(01-28-2017, 12:42 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: No it's for people who see the big picture beyond going home and sleeping like a baby.

My very libertarian friend spent the entire campaign bashing Clinton.  Why?  She was "evil".  He also thought Trump was "evil" but that he could never win so he bashed the front runner.

Then he voted for Johnson because he wouldn't vote for "the lessor of two evils".

Now he's "Not defending Trump" because of what happened during the Obama administration.

It's a weird world.

[*bfine32*]

My $0.02 on the tangent. I voted "other" in the General Election; however, I did this knowing full well that Trump would easily take my state (He got 66% of the vote, Hills only got 29%).

Now are there things that would have changed my vote? Yes

If we were a swing state I would have voted for Trump

If the US used a popular election (I know it comes as news to some that we don't) the I also would have voted for Trump.

Oh, and if I were a Her body her choice T-Shirts wearing, sandle collection having, limp wristed, slack jawed liberal then I would have voted Clinton.

[CageTheBengal]

(01-28-2017, 12:46 PM)GMDino Wrote: My very libertarian friend spent the entire campaign bashing Clinton.  Why?  She was "evil".  He also thought Trump was "evil" but that he could never win so he bashed the front runner.

Then he voted for Johnson because he wouldn't vote for "the lessor of two evils".

Now he's "Not defending Trump" because of what happened during the Obama administration.

It's a weird world.

Weird indeed.

It's been amazing the mental gymnastics people have gone through during this past cycle.

I have a friend that spends a lot of time bashing all sides of the government but then refuses to vote or get involved in anyway but still spends his time whining about all they do. Usually it's all wrapped up in conspiracy's.

[GMDino]

(01-28-2017, 01:07 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Weird indeed.

It's been amazing the mental gymnastics people have gone through during this past cycle.

I have a friend that spends a lot of time bashing all sides of the government but then refuses to vote or get involved in anyway but still spends his time whining about all they do. Usually it's all wrapped up in conspiracy's.

The most conservatives ones have trade marked the "wait and see" and when anything is pointed out that already happened they still say they have to see how it all works out.

[Rotobeast]

(01-28-2017, 12:42 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: No it's for people who see the big picture beyond going home and sleeping like a baby.

Bullshit !!
If the bigger picture were recognized, then everyone would know we have to kick the guts out of this corrupt system.
If we go the lesser of two evils route, we continue to buy into the game.
This crap is also why half the nation doesn't even vote anymore.
People need to do a nut-check and stand for Liberty.
Make the world a better place, don't just settle for the least shitty version of it.

There's one good thing about Trump being president.... people will finally understand that one man should never, ever wield so much power.

[Dill]

(01-28-2017, 02:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except I chose neither, and slept like a baby because even if it was going to be a shitty result either way, I didn't compromise my principles.

Lesser of two evils is just such a way to BS away a decision you probably shouldn't have made. As long as people keep being happy with just choosing the lesser of two evils, how can we ever get a choice that isn't evil?

There are different degrees of "shitty."   Americans found that out from 2000-08. A harsher lesson awaits them now.

In a pluralistic society, I doubt we will ever have a choice a majority thinks "isn't evil."  Everyone has to weigh priorities and give something up.

I stuck by my principles in 2000, but I did not sleep like a baby while Bush was bombing Iraq. We are the world's largest military and economy, and our choices affect others as well. That is why  the election of Trump has sent waves of consternation and insecurity around the world--to the delight of Trumpsters. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-29-2017, 12:31 AM)Dill Wrote: There are different degrees of "shitty."   Americans found that out from 2000-08. A harsher lesson awaits them now.

In a pluralistic society, I doubt we will ever have a choice a majority thinks "isn't evil."  Everyone has to weigh priorities and give something up.

I stuck by my principles in 2000, but I did not sleep like a baby while Bush was bombing Iraq. We are the world's largest military and economy, and our choices affect others as well. That is why  the election of Trump has sent waves of consternation and insecurity around the world--to the delight of Trumpsters. 

So instead you chose your "lesser of two evils" in 08-16 and watched us bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc, etc?

[Dill]

(01-29-2017, 03:39 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So instead you chose your "lesser of two evils" in 08-16 and watched us bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc, etc?

Of course. And I watched my choice pull the US out of Iraq, where a US invasion had resulted in some 200,000+ deaths and two million refugees --because Americans failed to choose the lesser evil in 2000. And in 2008 the other guy wanted continue the occupation.

And I watched my choice draw down Afghanistan, as well.  And I don't have a problem with bombing Syria, when that means degrading ISIL. And finally, I watched my choice finally do something about the healthcare problem in the U.S.

Then there were all the things he didn't do, like appoint conservative Supreme Court justices and persecute Muslims and roll back the EPA and privatize the NPR, Medicare, and Social Security and deport refugee children from Guatemala and El Salvador and defund climate change research.

All that is in play when I am choosing the lesser of two evils.

I am not for bombing anyone. Germany bombed France in WW2, and so did the US. But I have never had trouble seeing the US as the lesser of two evils in that war.

[Dill]

(01-28-2017, 12:39 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: You pick your poison with the greater good in mind.

I get that people weren't crazy about either candidate most people weren't but if you thought Trump was a severe threat to our country there was only one person you could vote for realistically to block him. People had different reasons for voting 3rd party but at the end of the day the results were Trump is president and we have to live with whatever damage he will do. No going back no re-dos it will be a stain on our country forever.

The real fight wasn't just Trump vs Hillary it was Unqualified vs Qualified, Blatant Ignorance vs Intelligence, Disrespect vs Respect, Facts vs Conspiracy and the list goes on because Trump was the least qualified person ever to win the highest office in the land. There was too much at stake to be playing the same old games like all the other election cycles. Just looking at the candidates was only a portion of the battle this time around.

If it was Hillary vs any of the other Republicans I wouldn't feel this way because I think most of them were qualified except maybe Carson and Fiorina. I didn't think those 2 were completely reckless though like Trump.

It's all these points that baffle me. Did people NOT understand that Trump's election was an end to civility, the dignity of the office of president, and prudence risking the nation's blood and treasure?

If you work for Big Oil or Big Pharma or Coal, sure, you can see some positives in the short run--but in the long run, even two years out?

Voting Trump in meant a conspiracy theorist with a 6th grader's vocabulary, conception of masculinity, ethnic stereotypes, and grasp of world history would be in charge of the world's largest military and economy--a guy who got his "intelligence" from Alex Jones Infowars--and nothing really bad would come from that?

They never suspected that as soon as in office he would traverse the Executive replacing competent people with his creatures and gagging any resistance? His people will be in charge of NPR and Radio America. He wants to defund "politicized science" like climate change research, does not want the government disseminating that research anymore. Right wing bloggers will have the floor as much or more as legitimate news organizations at the White House Press conferences now.

A 70-year old who publicly made fun of another person's handicap and tweeted out comparisons of his wife and Cruz's would teach U.S. students what about standards of public behavior?

Its like the Steelers got rid of Tomlin and hired Vontaze Burfict because fans were tired of professional football coaches and wanted "change," someone to "shake things up in Pittsburgh" and make the Steelers great again. And fans believed Burfict when he said he was good at talking smack on the football field, so he should be really good at managing and intimidating other NFL owners and players agents. And even when his first 6 draft picks were all linebackers with character issues and he fired Todd Haley and Mike Munchak and replaced them with two cousins, and then decided he was going to live in Cincinnati and commute to Pittsburgh, they still said "Haters gonna hate. Give the guy a chance. Let's see how he does over the next four seasons before we rush to judgment. He can't be any worse than Cowher or as divisive as Tomlin."

[CageTheBengal]

(01-29-2017, 05:36 AM)Dill Wrote: It's all these points that baffle me.  Did people NOT understand that Trump's election was an end to civility, the dignity of the office of president, and prudence risking the nation's blood and treasure?

If you work for Big Oil or Big Pharma or Coal, sure, you can see some positives in the short run--but in the long run, even two years out?

Voting Trump in meant a conspiracy theorist with a 6th grader's vocabulary, conception of masculinity, ethnic stereotypes, and grasp of world history would be in charge of the world's largest military and economy--a guy who got his "intelligence" from Alex Jones Infowars--and nothing really bad would come from that?

They never suspected that as soon as in office he would traverse the Executive replacing competent people with his creatures and gagging any resistance?   His people will be in charge of NPR and Radio America. He wants to defund "politicized science" like climate change research, does not want the government disseminating that research anymore.  Right wing bloggers will have the floor as much or more as legitimate news organizations at the White House Press conferences now.

A 70-year old who publicly made fun of another person's handicap and tweeted out comparisons of his wife and Cruz's would teach U.S. students what about standards of public behavior?  

Its like the Steelers got rid of Tomlin and hired Vontaze Burfict because fans were tired of professional football coaches and wanted "change," someone to "shake things up in Pittsburgh" and make the Steelers great again.  And fans believed Burfict when he said he was good at talking smack on the football field, so he should be really good at managing and intimidating other NFL owners and players agents. And even when his first 6 draft picks were all linebackers with character issues and he fired Todd Haley and Mike Munchak and replaced them with two cousins, and then decided he was going to live in Cincinnati and commute to Pittsburgh,  they still said "Haters gonna hate. Give the guy a chance. Let's see how he does over the next four seasons before we rush to judgment. He can't be any worse than Cowher or as divisive as Tomlin."

 Agreed with every word. It baffles me too because it was as obvious to me as the sky is blue. All of the info about Trump and what he stood for was out there (Except for his tax returns.) before people voted so nobody got hoodwinked or anything like that I just think he played to their emotions and that's what Americans voted with instead of their brain. Well the ones that did vote.

 How is it that Trump had a laundry list of issues and moments were you saw who he was as a person and yet plenty of Americans decided not only to vote for Trump but the rest can't see what a national security threat he is and are unable to unify against him? They were too busy pretending it was just another cycle and another Democrat vs Republican. I could literally make a list that would be more then a page long of moments throughout the campaign were Trump showed how low his morality can go. We knew Trump was a horrible person but the big knock on Hillary was "I don't know who she really is though and she's not very likeable." oh yeah and the E-mails which are totally irrelevant today (And were then when compared to Trump and his problems.) considering what we've seen from Trump so far.

 I think it comes down to our culture. We glorify celebrities, cash and shiny things over substance, intelligence and facts so of course a portion of the country isn't going to be able to grasp the concept that this man is totally unfit and that he ran businesses of his into the ground. (Yet he's still a business man with good business experience.) Americans prioritize voting for reality TV over voting for the president and neglect their obligation to be responsible, educated members of our democracy. Why else would anyone care whether Hillary is likeable or not? Like that is one of the most important attributes to someone leading a country. Why else would anyone think a spoiled, entitled punk like Trump is likeable over someone who has fought for social rights, stood for American values and was actually making this country a better place? She has been smeared time and time again because she was a strong woman and a force the Republicans have had to deal with way before she was first lady.

 Obviously a lot of people don't even grasp the big picture. I doubt most of Trump's supporters even knew any of the implications his rhetoric or policies would have on our country when they voted for him and didn't care. There was just a shiny rich businessman who talked tough and promised to put America first. I get the outsider appeal and wanting someone honest for office but no matter how much people wanted to pretend he was Trump never was and never will be that guy.

[Dill]

(01-29-2017, 01:05 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote:  How is it that Trump had a laundry list of issues and moments were you saw who he was as a person and yet plenty of Americans decided not only to vote for Trump but the rest can't see what a national security threat he is and are unable to unify against him? They were too busy pretending it was just another cycle and another Democrat vs Republican. I could literally make a list that would be more then a page long of moments throughout the campaign were Trump showed how low his morality can go. We knew Trump was a horrible person but the big knock on Hillary was "I don't know who she really is though and she's not very likeable." oh yeah and the E-mails which are totally irrelevant today (And were then when compared to Trump and his problems.) considering what we've seen from Trump so far.

 I think it comes down to our culture. We glorify celebrities, cash and shiny things over substance, intelligence and facts so of course a portion of the country isn't going to be able to grasp the concept that this man is totally unfit and that he ran businesses of his into the ground. (Yet he's still a business man with good business experience.) Americans prioritize voting for reality TV over voting for the president and neglect their obligation to be responsible, educated members of our democracy. Why else would anyone care whether Hillary is likeable or not? Like that is one of the most important attributes to someone leading a country. Why else would anyone think a spoiled, entitled punk like Trump is likeable over someone who has fought for social rights, stood for American values and was actually making this country a better place? She has been smeared time and time again because she was a strong woman and a force the Republicans have had to deal with way before she was first lady.

 Obviously a lot of people don't even grasp the big picture. I doubt most of Trump's supporters even knew any of the implications his rhetoric or policies would have on our country when they voted for him and didn't care. There was just a shiny rich businessman who talked tough and promised to put America first. I get the outsider appeal and wanting someone honest for office but no matter how much people wanted to pretend he was Trump never was and never will be that guy.

I agree with all these points, but it is the first one that bothers me especially. People who were not fanatic Trump supporters still act as if Trump will soon settle down and the country will go back to operating as normal, just with some conservative policies and maybe a few more jobs in the rust belt.  Like both sides are really the same, Trump won't all that much different from Hillary.

The business about glorifying celebrities ties into Trump and Trump supporters inability to vet news and other sources of information effectively.  He got a huge proportion of voters who still think Obama was born in Kenya and Saddam really had WMDs. His core supporters side with him against the CIA and believe Trump has "secret" proof when claims that over three million voted illegally. They aren't upset that tweets diplomacy because they would too by god!  Laying down the law to other world leaders feels great when they identify with that powerful authoritarian leader.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-29-2017, 03:39 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So instead you chose your "lesser of two evils" in 08-16 and watched us bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc, etc?

Hmm, who called it a global war on terror?

[Griever]

(01-28-2017, 12:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My $0.02 on the tangent. I voted "other" in the General Election; however, I did this knowing full well that Trump would easily take my state (He got 66% of the vote, Hills only got 29%).

Now are there things that would have changed my vote? Yes

If we were a swing state I would have voted for Trump

If the US used a popular election (I know it comes as news to some that we don't) the I also would have voted for Trump.

Oh, and if I were a Her body her choice T-Shirts wearing, sandle collection having, limp wristed, slack jawed liberal then I would have voted Clinton.

but you arent even a respectable man either, so where does that leave you?

[Griever]

good ol white spice

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/01/sean-spicer-retweets-the-onion-calling-job-misinformation.html