(10-10-2023, 06:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's rather hard to separate the Palestinians and Hamas when the Palestinians flat out refuse to condemn Hamas. Is being in favor of Israel not being in favor of the IDF? When you let terrorists speak for you, and refuse to condemn them when they do you have linked yourself to them.
The man himself literally links Palestinians and Hamas.
It is true that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their attack on Israel. In a world where nuance is reality, though, we need to have empathy for those Palestinians that may support Hamas but aren't out there killing innocent people. There are so many Arab Palestinians that have been facing atrocities for their whole lives. In all seriousness, the best analog for the situation Arab Palestinians face is the American Indian wars of the 19th century. Hamas is analogous to those that followed Tecumseh, or maybe Sitting Bull/Crazy Horse. They were fighting back against what they saw as an oppressive society that had broken promises and stolen their land. The native people that wouldn't fight still cheered them on from afar, and then we did things like Wounded Knee.
I spent so much time talking about this stuff over the summer because my tent mate for two weeks was a lawyer from Long Island, which if you know anything about stereotypes the likelihood was high that he was Jewish, and he was. He sat on the National Committee for the BSA as a representative of the Jewish community (there are several of them) and through him I met so many people and had so many discussions, including with the Jewish and Muslim chaplains on staff. One of the reasons I love Scouting is because it is a place where people from all over the world come together from different backgrounds with a common set of values that connects us all. It's a bit idealistic, but in this environment we can have some really interesting conversations and it really helps with the understanding side of things.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-10-2023, 06:36 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: How educated are you on the conflict? We could discuss nuances if you'd like, but I don't have time to give an entire history of it.
Historically? Rather well. As for nuance, that could take up the better part of a year and still scratch the surface.
Quote:Or, to clarify what I mean, to what degree do you believe the people who resided in the area prior to the 20th century are responsible for the Jewish people's expulsion from the area centuries (millenia?) ago?
The exact same amount that current residents of the US are for the expulsion of the native population over a century ago.
But this isn't the real question at hand. What is is the the Palestinians are inextricably linked to Hamas, if by nothing else than their refusal to sever any link to them on their own. As brutal and heavy handed as the IDF can, and has, been their actions are dwarfed by what's been committed by Hamas the past five or so days. If you refuse to condemn that, and by you I mean the Palestinians, then you have negated any sympathy I might have, or ever would have, for your cause.
(10-10-2023, 06:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Did they have their land stolen? Were not the Jews in that land prior to the Palestinians? If you use the left's own logic on this topic then the Palestinians stole the land from the Jews long ago. Your question does not indicate an unbiased position.
Actually, the Jewish people stole the land from the indigenous inhabitants during the events of Exodus. According to their own history they seized the land through bloodshed.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-10-2023, 06:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is true that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their attack on Israel. In a world where nuance is reality, though, we need to have empathy for those Palestinians that may support Hamas but aren't out there killing innocent people. There are so many Arab Palestinians that have been facing atrocities for their whole lives. In all seriousness, the best analog for the situation Arab Palestinians face is the American Indian wars of the 19th century. Hamas is analogous to those that followed Tecumseh, or maybe Sitting Bull/Crazy Horse. They were fighting back against what they saw as an oppressive society that had broken promises and stolen their land. The native people that wouldn't fight still cheered them on from afar, and then we did things like Wounded Knee.
I spent so much time talking about this stuff over the summer because my tent mate for two weeks was a lawyer from Long Island, which if you know anything about stereotypes the likelihood was high that he was Jewish, and he was. He sat on the National Committee for the BSA as a representative of the Jewish community (there are several of them) and through him I met so many people and had so many discussions, including with the Jewish and Muslim chaplains on staff. One of the reasons I love Scouting is because it is a place where people from all over the world come together from different backgrounds with a common set of values that connects us all. It's a bit idealistic, but in this environment we can have some really interesting conversations and it really helps with the understanding side of things.
I would agree, right up to the refusal to utterly condemn the actions of Hamas. You can condemn Hamas unequivocally and still be opposed to Israel's actions, or the brutality the IDF is capable of. You can do so and still sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians as well.
BTW, this is also a double edged sword, you can condemn the actions of the IDF and still understand why Israel conducts itself as it has, given the utter hostility of their neighbors from their genesis and the multiple, and ongoing, attempts to utterly destroy the nation, both with conventional militaries and terrorist organizations.
(10-10-2023, 06:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, the Jewish people stole the land from the indigenous inhabitants during the events of Exodus. According to their own history they seized the land through bloodshed.
The point being they were there before the Palestinians. Every square inch of this planet inhabited by humans has been taken by force by someone, from someone. Which is why the far left's arguments about "stolen land" are absurd in historical terms.
(10-10-2023, 06:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, the Jewish people stole the land from the indigenous inhabitants during the events of Exodus. According to their own history they seized the land through bloodshed.
Which they were told to do by God if I'm not mistaken. And maybe that is the basic crux of all of this if we think about it. Otherwise after WW2 and the holocaust, Israel could have been created elsewhere instead of right smack in the middle of "hostile" territory where God told them to settle ~3200 years prior. Anyways just a thought on that, not to be taken too seriously.
(10-10-2023, 06:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The point being they were there before the Palestinians. Every square inch of this planet inhabited by humans has been taken by force by someone, from someone. Which is why the far left's arguments about "stolen land" are absurd in historical terms.
(10-10-2023, 06:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The point being they were there before the Palestinians. Every square inch of this planet inhabited by humans has been taken by force by someone, from someone. Which is why the far left's arguments about "stolen land" are absurd in historical terms.
Not necessarily. If you have Palestinians that are the descendants of the indigenous Canaanite people, then they were there long beforehand. If you have Palestinians that are descendants of Jews that had converted during the Roman and later Muslim occupations, then they hold claim as old as many modern day Jews.
It's a lot more complicated and it isn't just the "far left" that refers to it as stolen land.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-10-2023, 06:36 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: How far back are you interested in discussing regarding this conflict? We could discuss nuances if you'd like, but I don't have time to go into the entire history of it (stretching into the BCs).
Or, to clarify what I mean, to what degree do you believe the people who resided in the area prior to the 20th century are responsible for the Jewish people's expulsion from the area centuries (millenia?) ago?
I thought this was a good, brief explanation of the hostility in the region.
(10-10-2023, 07:13 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Which they were told to do by God if I'm not mistaken. And maybe that is the basic crux of all of this if we think about it. Otherwise after WW2 and the holocaust, Israel could have been created elsewhere instead of right smack in the middle of "hostile" territory where God told them to settle ~3200 years prior. Anyways just a thought on that, not to be taken too seriously.
I think about this sometimes. Specifically, in an episode of The Big Bang Theory where Sheldon attempts to tackle Middle East peace there was that conversation. But creating a Jewish state wouldn't have worked anywhere else because then the evangelical Christians couldn't attempt to bring about the apocalypse.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
Should we be not extending the same courtesy to Palestinians that support Hamas the same way we DON'T extend that same courtesy to those that support extremist groups?
Definitely not an area of deep knowledge but I feel like if you're cheering on the slaughter of children and teenagers then you're part of the problem.
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
(10-10-2023, 06:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Historically? Rather well. As for nuance, that could take up the better part of a year and still scratch the surface.
The exact same amount that current residents of the US are for the expulsion of the native population over a century ago.
But this isn't the real question at hand. What is is the the Palestinians are inextricably linked to Hamas, if by nothing else than their refusal to sever any link to them on their own. As brutal and heavy handed as the IDF can, and has, been their actions are dwarfed by what's been committed by Hamas the past five or so days. If you refuse to condemn that, and by you I mean the Palestinians, then you have negated any sympathy I might have, or ever would have, for your cause.
I guess I don't understand what you want then. I'm struggling to contextualize your beliefs about stolen land without inevitably straw manning you.
The Palestinians lived there, then their land and homes were taken from them. Now they're living under Israeli occupation in an area where they cannot freely come and go. Many have described their living condition as an open air prison.
Under your belief that all land was taken by someone at some point, making the stolen land argument invalid, I just don't understand how that viewpoint can be taken as anything other than just, "**** Palestinians, I don't care what happens to them."
(10-10-2023, 08:47 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I guess I don't understand what you want then. I'm struggling to contextualize your beliefs about stolen land without inevitably straw manning you.
The Palestinians lived there, then their land and homes were taken from them. Now they're living under Israeli occupation in an area where they cannot freely come and go. Many have described their living condition as an open air prison.
It's not that complicated. The Palestinians had far more land when Israel was created than they do now. Why is this? Because they deliberately participated in numerous military actions aimed at the destruction if Israel. Do I agree with Israel seizing the land after defending themselves successfully against Arab aggression? No, ultimately it would have been better for them, morally if for no other reason, to not do so. Do I think there wouldn't still be ongoing attempts to destroy Israel even if they had done so? Absolutely. This isn't a political struggle, it is a religious one. Far too many Muslim majority nations see the destruction of Israel as a religious duty. Why you continue to ignore their embracing terrorism as a means of retaliation is beyond me.
Quote:Under your belief that all land was taken by someone at some point, making the stolen land argument invalid, I just don't understand how that viewpoint can be taken as anything other than just, "**** Palestinians, I don't care what happens to them."
To which I would counter with this. Much has been made in this thread about "understanding" the Palestinian actions of the past few days and why they felt they were necessary. Why not such call for an "understanding" of why Israel had conducted themselves as they have the past sixty plus years? Do you think Israel has had no cause to respond or act as they have?
Even if you refuse to grant the same appeal for understanding to Israel that this thread demands for the Palestinians, one must ask a simple question. How can you even attempt to side with a people, regardless of how just you believe their ultimate cause to be, that would condone, and encourage, the wanton slaughter of civilians? This includes the beheading of infants, the livestream murders of hostages, the kidnapping and gang raping of women, the wholesale and deliberate slaughter of families in their homes. If we're discussing a people who would accept, and encourage, such actions, then you are correct, I have a very hard time expressing sympathy for them, no matter how valid their initial grievances were.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-10-2023, 06:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Historically? Rather well. As for nuance, that could take up the better part of a year and still scratch the surface.
The exact same amount that current residents of the US are for the expulsion of the native population over a century ago.
But this isn't the real question at hand. What is is the the Palestinians are inextricably linked to Hamas, if by nothing else than their refusal to sever any link to them on their own. As brutal and heavy handed as the IDF can, and has, been their actions are dwarfed by what's been committed by Hamas the past five or so days. If you refuse to condemn that, and by you I mean the Palestinians, then you have negated any sympathy I might have, or ever would have, for your cause.
but who is left to speak for ordinary Palestinians? Any opposition to Hamas is quickly done away with. Moving away from Gaza is virtually impossible.
(10-10-2023, 10:00 PM)pally Wrote: but who is left to speak for ordinary Palestinians? Any opposition to Hamas is quickly done away with. Moving away from Gaza is virtually impossible.
Well, the ambassador in the BBC clip would seem to be one. If your point is that Hamas kills anyone who disagrees with them, then what can anyone do about that? You allowed your people to be usurped by monsters, a monstrous result is thus inevitable.
Well Israel is doing for Palestinians what was not done for them. They are letting them know to leave and leave now or they will die. They are sending text messages and also communicating this through news organizations.
It appears Israel is not going to play games with Hamas. They seem to be getting ready to level Gaza. I pray the innocent Palestinians heed the warning and head to Egypt or another country to keep themselves and their families safe.
Let the terrorists stay in Gaza, they raped women, they beheaded innocent babies and people. Even the bible says, an eye for an eye.
Again, they warned civilians to leave, now up to them to get out of dodge or meet their maker.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
14 US Citizens killed, confirmed US Citizens among the hostages taken, at least 20 Americans in Israel still unaccounted for.
Students at colleges, BLM, and Democratic Socialists celebrating the rape and slaughter of civilians including children, over 1,000 dead, siding with a group threatening to execute hostages on video. Really taking off the mask here.
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