Hate crime?

[*michaelsean*]

Just curious about people’s opinions. I was watching one of those ID shows and it was about a group of guys looking to rob people. They came up with a plan to meet gay men in AOL Chat (this was like 15 years ago) and set up a rendezvous at a remote place supposedly for sex. When the guy got there they would rob him. There thinking was they would have a better chance of luring a gay man, and if he wasn’t out yet he might not even report it. Well the guy they lure figured it out pretty quickly and starts taking off. They catch up to him near a highway and punch him a couple times. He gets away but is disoriented and runs into traffic and is killed. Amongst the other charges they were charged with a hate crime because they targeted gays. Is that really what hate crime legislation means? Should muggers or rapists be charged with hate crimes because they target women?

The worst thing though is these guys got off way light. They were convicted of a lesser crime plus the hate crime and ended up with like 15 years, and the hate crime nearly doubles the sentence so they would have gotten like eight years which is ridiculous. Whatever happened to felony murder?

[*bfine32*]

Your question is thought provoking.

He was targeted because he was guy; however, he was not killed because he was gay.

Personally I don't think his sexual orientation should have any bearing on the sentence.

[Benton]

(05-29-2019, 08:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Whatever happened to felony murder?

We've legislated away from trusting the judicial branch.

Used to, you killed someone you were either killed or spent life in prison. Now, there's a lot of degrees. Was it premeditated? Was it someone of a different religion? Different race?

[*michaelsean*]

(05-30-2019, 02:40 AM)Benton Wrote: We've legislated away from trusting the judicial branch.

Used to, you killed someone you were either killed or spent life in prison. Now, there's a lot of degrees. Was it premeditated? Was it someone of a different religion? Different race?

Yeah I mean these weren't plea bargains they went to trial.  It seems somewhere in there a felony was committed.  But if you want the other extreme I saw a show where two guys went to rob, with a gun, some street vendor, and the vendor shot and killed one of them, and the other was charged with felony murder.  I'm like damn that's harsh.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Hate crime enhancements are problematic because they introduce subjectivity into an objective process. I can tell you that criminals in Los Angeles deliberately target Asians as they think they have more money and that they are physically weak and thus less likely to fight back or defend themselves. This doesn't meet the threshold for a hate crime enhancement, but why wouldn't it if you deliberately targeted someone for their ethnicity? Like I said, I dislike the subjective nature of the enhancement, it introduces a lot of legal ambiguities IMO.

[fredtoast]

In general I agree with the concept of hate crimes. Hate crimes should be punished more severely because they have more victims. A crime against a gay person committed because he was gay puts the entire gay community in fear. It is the same theory as punishing acts of terrorism because of their effect on a larger group of people other than the direct victims. Burning a cross in one persons yard puts a lot of people in fear.

But, like any law, they get complicated when put in practice. Both Michaelsean and SSF have provided examples of certain groups being targeted not because of a hatred against their race or sexual orientation, but because of other traits that make them "easier" victims.

Although these examples are not the original intent of "hate crime" legislation they do put an entire community in fear of being victimized. So do we punish for "intent" or "result"?

[*bfine32*]

Do we think this is a hate crime:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/woman-accused-of-attacking-mc-donalds-employee-193121785.html

Quote:A Tennessee woman is accused of assaulting a McDonald’s drive-thru cashier and using a stun gun on him after she became frustrated while waiting for her order.....Glidwell then got out of the car and allegedly assaulted him through the window. Reports suggest that the attack may have been influenced by the cashier’s race and sexuality.

The arrest warrant states that Glidwell called the cashier a “white supremacist” and “f*****” as she hit him.....He added that Glidwell said the 19-year-old “deserved this” because he “voted for Trump,” which the teen disputed, saying he “wasn’t even old enough to vote when he ran.”

[*Nately120*]

(07-03-2019, 10:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do we think this is a hate crime:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/woman-accused-of-attacking-mc-donalds-employee-193121785.html

She seems pretty crazy and wrong, so I say we should hit her with a massively inflated "hate crime" charge so white men can feel validated for a change.  Then again, "white supremacist" and "voted for Trump" aren't protected classes.  Though I suppose the hate angle comes from the idea that she saw a white male and assumed he was a Trump-lovin' Nazi.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2019, 02:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: She seems pretty crazy and wrong, so I say we should hit her with a massively inflated "hate crime" charge so white men can feel validated for a change.  Then again, "white supremacist" and "voted for Trump" aren't protected classes.  Though I suppose the hate angle comes from the idea that she saw a white male and assumed he was a Trump-lovin' Nazi.

Race is a protected class and in many cases so is sexual orientation. I know it's a difficult concept but people can be hated and perhaps in this case attacked simply because of their skin color. I'm unsure why it matters what color the skin is.

As to the question I posed I didn't get much feedback so I'll share my opinion.

We don't have enough knowledge, we must know what is the source for the hate and what was the trigger for the action. If her hate was sourced in race and the delay was a trigger then yes it's a hate crime. If the source was she always has to wait for her McNuggets and the appearance of the worker was a trigger then no it's not a hate crime. 

But either way; as you say she is wrong, not sure about crazy. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-04-2019, 04:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Race is a protected class and in many cases so is sexual orientation. I know it's a difficult concept but people can be hated and perhaps in this case attacked simply because of their skin color. I'm unsure why it matters what color the skin is.

As to the question I posed I didn't get much feedback so I'll share my opinion.

We don't have enough knowledge, we must know what is the source for the hate and what was the trigger for the action. If her hate was sourced in race and the delay was a trigger then yes it's a hate crime. If the source was she always has to wait for her McNuggets and the appearance of the worker was a trigger then no it's not a hate crime. 

But either way; as you say she is wrong, not sure about crazy. 

Well, I'm playing devil's advocate here.  If you want to just say she attacked the guy because he is white and call it a hate crime, so be it.  That would require discussing if white supremacist and Trump supporter are things that are inherently connected to being a white guy, being a white guy being the thing he can't change.  

Let's just picture a white woman pointing a gun at a black guy because he's "obviously" a member of a Crips and he's an Obama supporter.  Actually, I'm pretty sure "He looked like a gang member" would be a rational defense in pointing a gun at, and shooting a black guy, so maybe that's a bad example.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2019, 04:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, I'm playing devil's advocate here.  If you want to just say she attacked the guy because he is white and call it a hate crime, so be it.  That would require discussing if white supremacist and Trump supporter are things that are inherently connected to being a white guy, being a white guy being the thing he can't change.  

Let's just picture a white woman pointing a gun at a black guy because he's "obviously" a member of a Crips and he's an Obama supporter.  Actually, I'm pretty sure "He looked like a gang member" would be a rational defense in pointing a gun at, and shooting a black guy, so maybe that's a bad example.

Saying things like White Supremacists and Trump Supporter very well may be masks for a deeper hate. This kid is a homosexual; I'm not sure of the homosexual population in many of these Neo-Nazi groups and the dude was too young to vote when Trump was elected so there's no basis for a Trump Supporter. 
Your provided example was starting to show you understood the point then you went off the rails.  

[*Nately120*]

(07-04-2019, 04:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Saying things like White Supremacists and Trump Supporter very well may be masks for a deeper hate. This kid is a homosexual; I'm not sure of the homosexual population in many of these Neo-Nazi groups and the dude was too young to vote when Trump was elected so there's no basis for a Trump Supporter. 
Your provided example was starting to show you understood the point then you went off the rails.  

Let me say that I go off the rails because I'm a filthy cynic who realizes that logic has little to no place when attempting to deduce the mindsets of people...particularity nuts like this woman.  Remember, people who misuse guns (stun, and otherwise?) are psychologically disturbed.

I get what you are saying, she saw a white guy and figured he was a racist Trump-lover, so it goes towards her just making assumptions based on his skin color.  Fair enough, I'm not fighting for her side.  Hell, when I look at this I think more about the overall stereotype that Americans are angry and violent and people just love to take their anger out on captive people within the service industry.

We can put this woman in jail and add hate crimes to it and all that jazz, fair enough.  The main thing I take from stuff like this is that we as a population are whipped into a frenzy by the powers that be and we spend most of our time fighting among ourselves.  If I may put on my stereotype glasses, this woman and this guy she hates most certainly have a lot more in common than that guy she hates and Trump.  It's all a bunch of misleading crap and we swallow the hook over and over again.

And the best part?  There are about 4,000 comments on that article and I'd wager they are mostly people just using this incident to pat themselves on the back for being "right."  This also makes me think of that video from a few years back where a white woman went ape at a drivethrough and the comments section was full of people declaring that she was "Obviously a Sarah Palin fan" or "Obviously one of Obama's fans."  At any rate, thoughts and prayers that people like her stop assuming white guys are all racists.