"Hillbilly Elegy"

[fredtoast]

This book was a #1 bestseller a few years ago. Now they are making a movie based on it.

It is the true story of a boy who was born in Breathitt County KY where my dad was born, and moved to Middletown OH which was about 15 minutes from where I grew up (Franklin). So I am very well acquainted with the settings.

It is more a sociological discourse than just a biography. The author, J.D. Vance, came from a broken family of crazy hillbillies and went on to graduate from Yale law school, but even he admits that he is not famous enough for people just to be interested in his life story. Instead it is a story about the great migration of the Scotch-Irish from rural Appalachia to Ohio/Indiana/Michigan after WWII through the 1960's, and why they are failing so badly today.

He is a conservative, but he has a pretty balanced view of the situation. He overcame a lot of adversity through hard work, but he also admits that he was lucky to have some support systems in place. He does not say that just because he made it then everyone else should be able to. He does not praise the Democrats government programs to address poverty, but he does not blame the government for the problems either.

One of the biggest points he makes is about poverty is that people who are raised surrounded by poverty often don't see any way out. they think getting rich is for "other people". He talks about how poor people need to be exposed to some people who have succeeded just so they can see that it is possible. And not just driven through a rich neighborhood. they need to know these people on a personal basis so that they can actually identify with them. This was one of the goals of the program that led to Trump accusing Biden of "destroying the suburbs". It is important to have government housing somewhere other than just in the absolute poorest conditions. When the only people children ever know are poor losers then they obviously identify as a member of that group. Instead they need to be around middle class families and be exposed to a normal way of life.

There is a lot more to it than this. It is a good read. I recommend it.

[fredtoast]

BTW both of my parents left the rural south and came north for jobs in the 1950's. Both of them came from extreme poverty and did not have electricity or indoor plumbing when they were young. Neither one of them had a high school education. But instead of crazy violent hillbillies they were both responsible hard working people.

I really identified with a lot of things Vance talked about. I was always intelligent and did well in school, but I had poor grammar habits until I was in law school and had some friends who actually corrected me. In law school I felt like an uncultured hick. I had not travelled much and knew little about art, literature, fine dining, or anything other than rock and country music. I felt like I did not belong.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

My wife got a good laugh from that book due to similarities with my upbringing. Even some of the names are the same.

[fredtoast]

I had just finished reading "Bloody Breathitt" which chronicles the violent history of Breathitt County where my father was born and raised. in the early 1900's Breathitt County was famous for the violent feuds that went on there. The New York Times and other newspapers all across the country wrote about Breathitt County. The violence in Breathitt County was just as famous as the Hatfield/McCoy Feud. Judges, lawmen, and politicians were shot and killed in the streets of Jackson in broad daylight.

One of the major player in the violence was Judge W.H. Blanton. The killings in Breathitt County were not really "feuds" over family or honor. Instead they were based on the divisive politics of the region after the Civil War and Judge Blanton was involved in a lot of them. He was also the grandfather of Mammaw Blanton who mainly raised the Author of "hillbilly Elegy" J. D. Vance.

When you read how crazy and violent she was it is clear that she inherited a lot of that from her grandfather.

[Belsnickel]

**** J.D. Vance and his book. It is nothing more than fodder for the policymakers to continue exploiting and then ignoring the plights of Appalachians. The memoir parts may be fine, but he can **** right off with his characterizations of Appalachian people.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2020, 07:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: **** J.D. Vance and his book. It is nothing more than fodder for the policymakers to continue exploiting and then ignoring the plights of Appalachians. The memoir parts may be fine, but he can **** right off with his characterizations of Appalachian people.

How do you really feel?

[Belsnickel]

(09-22-2020, 07:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How do you really feel?

He just really got under my skin with his stuff. As a southern Appalachian with a long history of hillbillies in my family his observations of the region rubbed me the wrong way and after reading some of the books responding to him it only got worse.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2020, 08:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:

He just really got under my skin with his stuff. As a southern Appalachian with a long history of hillbillies in my family his observations of the region rubbed me the wrong way and after reading some of the books responding to him it only got worse.

I'm going to have to read his work now.

I've never lived an Appalachia, but my dad was a district manager for his company in Eastern KY. and we used to visit often. You've never tasted nasty until you've drank sulfur water.   

[Belsnickel]

(09-22-2020, 08:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm going to have to read his work now.

I've never lived an Appalachia, but my dad was a district manager for his company in Eastern KY. and we used to visit often. You've never tasted nasty until you've drank sulfur water.   

I think it's good to read it, but also important to read two other works that were compiled in response: What You're Getting Wrong About Appalachia and Appalachian Reckoning: A Region Responds to Hillbilly Elegy

Vance really made some people in the region angry with his characterization of the people and the culture. I was born in SWPA, which is Appalachia, and raised and currently live in the Appalachian area of Virginia.

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 08:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:

He just really got under my skin with his stuff. As a southern Appalachian with a long history of hillbillies in my family his observations of the region rubbed me the wrong way and after reading some of the books responding to him it only got worse.

My paternal grandmother's side is from Front Royal and had been since the 1700's. Granddaddy and meemaw. Lots of Irish surnames in those lines.

Granddaddy's father was like 60 when he had him with his 35 year old wife. For some reason they moved up to Baltimore when he was 10 in the 1920's, all 10 kids aged 26 to 3 in tow. His sister married my meemaw's brother, so I guess that's how they met. I think she moved up to Maryland and they got married, because by the time WWII started, he was working at Ft Meade up here. 

200 years, that family lived in that area of VA. Fortunately we stayed here lol

[Dill]

(09-22-2020, 11:26 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: My paternal grandmother's side is from Front Royal and had been since the 1700's. Granddaddy and meemaw. Lots of Irish surnames in those lines.

Granddaddy's father was like 60 when he had him with his 35 year old wife. For some reason they moved up to Baltimore when he was 10 in the 1920's, all 10 kids aged 26 to 3 in tow. His sister married my meemaw's brother, so I guess that's how they met. I think she moved up to Maryland and they got married, because by the time WWII started, he was working at Ft Meade up here. 

Fortunately we stayed here lol

Indeed. Now you follow the Ravens instead of the Washington Football Team.

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2020, 11:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Indeed. Now you follow the Ravens instead of the Washington Football Team.

My maternal grandmother's side had been in the Southern MD/DC region since the same time (early 1700's or so). Somehow I escaped it. 

[Belsnickel]

(09-22-2020, 11:26 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: My paternal grandmother's side is from Front Royal and had been since the 1700's. Granddaddy and meemaw. Lots of Irish surnames in those lines.

Granddaddy's father was like 60 when he had him with his 35 year old wife. For some reason they moved up to Baltimore when he was 10 in the 1920's, all 10 kids aged 26 to 3 in tow. His sister married my meemaw's brother, so I guess that's how they met. I think she moved up to Maryland and they got married, because by the time WWII started, he was working at Ft Meade up here. 

200 years, that family lived in that area of VA. Fortunately we stayed here lol

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade living in Appalachia for anything. I love this area and the people here. I couldn't see myself living in a city bigger than the ones you can find here in the Shenandoah Valley. The rural life is for me.

[BmorePat87]

(09-23-2020, 07:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade living in Appalachia for anything. I love this area and the people here. I couldn't see myself living in a city bigger than the ones you can find here in the Shenandoah Valley. The rural life is for me.

From what I can tell, they likely felt that way too. My dad just filled me in and they only moved to Maryland for the war effort during WWI, so they were there a few years by the 1920 census. They settled in, at the time, a fairly rural part of Maryland. 

The patriarch died while they were there, so I guess mom stayed with the younger kids because her two eldest daughters married. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-22-2020, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: One of the biggest points he makes is about poverty is that people who are raised surrounded by poverty often don't see any way out.  they think getting rich is for "other people".  He talks about how poor people need to be exposed to some people who have succeeded just so they can see that it is possible.  And not just driven through a rich neighborhood.  they need to know these people on a personal basis so that they can actually identify with them. 

As someone who used to work very closely with poor people, I can attest that this is true of many (most?) of them. There are exceptions, of course (thinking of young athletes thinking they can become a rich professional athlete), but I would agree that this is pretty much the truth.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2020, 07:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: **** J.D. Vance and his book. It is nothing more than fodder for the policymakers to continue exploiting and then ignoring the plights of Appalachians. The memoir parts may be fine, but he can **** right off with his characterizations of Appalachian people.

Vance's family experience was very heavy on alcohol and violence.  Not all hillbillies are like that at all.  So I agree with you to a point.

But at the same time many hillbillies see their people as "honest, hard-working Christians" and that just is not true.  They are very insular, and this keeps them from thriving and progressing.

[BmorePat87]

One thing I noticed about researching my Virginia Appalachian ancestors versus my Maryland/DC Irish Catholic ancestors is the amount of kids they had. 7+ seemed to be the norm. Not a ton dying in childhood either. More frequently, you'd see the mom die and the dad remarry and have a few more kids.

The vast majority of my DNA matches on Ancestry being from my paternal grandmother's side makes sense now.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2020, 11:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: One thing I noticed about researching my Virginia Appalachian ancestors versus my Maryland/DC Irish Catholic ancestors is the amount of kids they had. 7+ seemed to be the norm. Not a ton dying in childhood either. More frequently, you'd see the mom die and the dad remarry and have a few more kids.

The vast majority of my DNA matches on Ancestry being from my paternal grandmother's side makes sense now.

My grandfather was born in 1877.  He was 51 when my father was born to his second wife and had three more children after that.  He had a total of 13 children.  I had an uncle (not great-uncle) who served in WWI.  I could not keep them straight at all when I was growing up.  I had cousins who were 40+ years older than me.

[Belsnickel]

(09-23-2020, 11:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Vance's family experience was very heavy on alcohol and violence.  Not all hillbillies are like that at all.  So I agree with you to a point.

But at the same time many hillbillies see their people as "honest, hard-working Christians" and that just is not true.  They are very insular, and this keeps them from thriving and progressing.

Good to know you're willing to stereotype.

(09-23-2020, 11:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: One thing I noticed about researching my Virginia Appalachian ancestors versus my Maryland/DC Irish Catholic ancestors is the amount of kids they had. 7+ seemed to be the norm. Not a ton dying in childhood either. More frequently, you'd see the mom die and the dad remarry and have a few more kids.

The vast majority of my DNA matches on Ancestry being from my paternal grandmother's side makes sense now.

Were your Virginian ancestors Scots/Irish or German? Being that the northern part was more German and the southern part more Scots/Irish, I'm guessing German but it could go either way. There is a dividing line in the Shenandoah Valley which is the border between Augusta and Rockingham counties.

[BmorePat87]

(09-23-2020, 12:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My grandfather was born in 1877.  He was 51 when my father was born to his second wife and had three more children after that.  He had a total of 13 children.  I had an uncle (not great-uncle) who served in WWI.  I could not keep them straight at all when I was growing up.  I had cousins who were 40+ years older than me.

Yea, my Great Grandfather was 1 of 10, with the youngest being 3 when the dad died at the age of 70. His wife was 1 of 10. His dad was 1 of 10 and his mom 1 of 9.