How bad is the defense?

[chopperbobby]

Can we cover the center of the field on 3rd down? ESP a tight end I. The middle. Always wide open. Been that way for years

[THE PISTONS]

Pratt and Wilson are underperforming.

[ezekiel23]

Creating turnovers has really helped to bail this defense out this year,and that’s a good thing.But,if not for those,things would look even uglier for this defense.I think we’re missing Bates & Bell.

[jj22]

They were able to cover TEs with Flowers. A big corner. They have a big corner they were high on in Ivey. They should let him settle in at that role… see if he can at least for 2024.

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 10:24 PM)Nepa Wrote: The defense has been bad. But I can't blame Lou when he told us in the off-season that we had to hang onto at least one of the safeties. That if we lost both, it would be "a dark day." He added that losing both "would be huge," and that they lost not only talent but leadership.

When the DC tells you that, the front office has to find a way to keep one. Or get a stellar replacement.

No reason to make excuses.  Safeties dont cause RBs to gain 4 yards before contact. 

This revisionist memory that Bates was some Ed Reed ballhawk is comical.  He was not a good tackler and gave up both TDs in the AFCCG.  He is a good player but had one really good season for us, laid down the next, and then was ok.  He did have a grasp of the defense.

Bell was unathletic and limited the defense's flexibility.  He had one interception in his first 2 seasons here.  Again, he knew the defense.

Players come and go in the NFL.  It would had been stupid to have paid Bates.  Bell wanted more guaranteed money that would cause issues next season.

Lou was given a 1st Round safety with excellent athleticism.
A Super Bowl starting vet, who has played like shit.
A 3rd round safety from a national power.

He needs to work with what he has if he is to live up to his reputation.  If he needs a bunch of stellar players then he isnt a great DC.

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 10:55 PM)jj22 Wrote: They were able to cover TEs with Flowers. A big corner. They have a big corner they were high on in Ivey. They should let him settle in at that role… see if he can at least for 2024.

Ivey has been inactive when everyone is healthy, who are you taking off the roster on game day?

[jj22]

(11-26-2023, 11:07 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Ivey has been inactive when everyone is healthy, who are you taking off the roster on game day?

Awuzie, Scott, Davis, Irv, Anyone at this point given the season is over. I was surprised they still had Hubbard, Hendrickson, and Hill out there given they were or have been dinged up. All rookies withstand need reps need to be in there. Brown over Williams (who I had hopes for but has gotten his shot and hasn’t done much with it). 

While we are at it IR Higgins and bring on up someone from the practice squad. Get Lassiter and Prior some reps. See if Gunter developed. Browning probably more comfortable throwing to those wideouts anyway. Maybe he can anticipate better and not hold on to the ball waiting for someone to get open. 

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 11:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: Awuzie, Scott, Davis, Irv, Anyone at this point given the season is over. I was surprised they still had Hubbard, Hendrickson, and Hill out there given they were or have been dinged up. All rookies withstand need reps need to be in there. Brown over Williams (who I had hopes for but has gotten his shot and hasn’t done much with it). 

While we are at it IR Higgins and bring on up someone from the practice squad. Get Lassiter and Prior some reps. See if Gunter developed. Browning probably more comfortable throwing to those wideouts anyway. Maybe he can anticipate better and not hold on to the ball waiting for someone to get open. 

This makes zero sense and would get us into a ton of trouble with the league.  Not to mention negatively impact careers of multiple players resulting in a terrible reputation for the org.

I'm sorry I asked.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-26-2023, 11:01 PM)casear2727 Wrote: No reason to make excuses.  Safeties dont cause RBs to gain 4 yards before contact. 

This revisionist memory that Bates was some Ed Reed ballhawk is comical.  He was not a good tackler and gave up both TDs in the AFCCG.  He is a good player but had one really good season for us, laid down the next, and then was ok.  He did have a grasp of the defense.

Bell was unathletic and limited the defense's flexibility.  He had one interception in his first 2 seasons here.  Again, he knew the defense.

Players come and go in the NFL.  It would had been stupid to have paid Bates.  Bell wanted more guaranteed money that would cause issues next season.

Lou was given a 1st Round safety with excellent athleticism.
A Super Bowl starting vet, who has played like shit.
A 2nd round safety from a national power.

He needs to work with what he has if he is to live up to his reputation.  If he needs a bunch of stellar players then he isnt a great DC.

Battle was a 3rd rounder, but the rest of your point stands.

[jj22]

(11-26-2023, 11:21 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This makes zero sense and would get us into a ton of trouble with the league.  Not to mention negatively impact careers of multiple players resulting in a terrible reputation for the org.

I'm sorry I asked.

Why would we get in trouble? Hubbard, Hill, Hendrickson, Tee all been in and out with injuries. Sitting them due to that wouldn’t be an issue. Everyone knew they were dealing with things.

Getting depth experience, live game reps is the only goal for the remainder of the season. Duh. I’m sorry I answered.

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 11:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Battle was a 3rd rounder, but the rest of your point stands.

Yeah, confused with Turner I guess, thanks for the correction.

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 11:24 PM)jj22 Wrote: Why would we get in trouble? Hubbard, Hill, Hendrickson, Tee all been in and out with injuries. Sitting them due to that wouldn’t be an issue. Everyone knew they were dealing with things.

Because teams cannot intentionally tank.  What you are suggesting is intentionally tanking.

You are also screwing with players careers - Awuzie, Irv, and Higgins are free agents this coming year.

Getting young guys reps is great but being stupid and losing draft picks and never signing another free agent doesnt make a lot of sense. 

[jj22]

(11-26-2023, 11:29 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Because teams cannot intentionally tank.  What you are suggesting is intentionally tanking.

You are also screwing with players careers - Awuzie, Irv, and Higgins are free agents this coming year.

Getting young guys reps is great but being stupid and losing draft picks and never signing another free agent doesnt make a lot of sense. 

Intentionally tanking? That would insinuate they can win if the starters played. They can’t and won’t win with the staters in without Burrow. Having to tank in fear of winning sounds like a good problem to have going into 2024. Unfortunately that isn’t the case. 

All those players been on the injury report, and Irv, Higgins stock is only going to get worse given Browning at QB and Awuzie has had 11 games to make money…… and hasn’t. That’s on him too with younger talent at his position set to replace him. 

Free agents will come where the money is.

[casear2727]

(11-26-2023, 11:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: Intentionally tanking? That would insinuate they can win if the starters played. They can’t. Having to tank in fear of winning sounds like a good problem to have going into 2024. Unfortunately that isn’t the case. 

All those players been on the injury report, and Irv, Higgins stock is only going to get worse given Browning at QB and Awuzie has had 11 games to make money…… and hasn’t. That’s on him too with younger talent at his position set to replace him. 

Free agents will come where the money is.

What you suggested is way too obvious.  I was the first to mention playing the younger guys more, but it has to be done properly.

Free agents would be VERY AWARE of what we did if we were to sit our starting CB, TE and WR.  Again, we cannot be stupid.

Im much more concerned that Zac will not have any inclination to play the young guys much whatsoever.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2023, 11:01 PM)casear2727 Wrote: No reason to make excuses.  Safeties dont cause RBs to gain 4 yards before contact. 

This revisionist memory that Bates was some Ed Reed ballhawk is comical.  He was not a good tackler and gave up both TDs in the AFCCG.  He is a good player but had one really good season for us, laid down the next, and then was ok.  He did have a grasp of the defense.

Bell was unathletic and limited the defense's flexibility.  He had one interception in his first 2 seasons here.  Again, he knew the defense.

Players come and go in the NFL.  It would had been stupid to have paid Bates.  Bell wanted more guaranteed money that would cause issues next season.

Lou was given a 1st Round safety with excellent athleticism.
A Super Bowl starting vet, who has played like shit.
A 2nd round safety from a national power.

He needs to work with what he has if he is to live up to his reputation.  If he needs a bunch of stellar players then he isnt a great DC.

Bates was thoroughly average many games, then he'd crank it up and just have a great came or string of games. He's paid as an elite safety.

Guys like Ed Reed had great games often.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-26-2023, 11:01 PM)casear2727 Wrote: No reason to make excuses.  Safeties dont cause RBs to gain 4 yards before contact. 

This revisionist memory that Bates was some Ed Reed ballhawk is comical.  He was not a good tackler and gave up both TDs in the AFCCG.  He is a good player but had one really good season for us, laid down the next, and then was ok.  He did have a grasp of the defense.

Bell was unathletic and limited the defense's flexibility.  He had one interception in his first 2 seasons here.  Again, he knew the defense.

Players come and go in the NFL.  It would had been stupid to have paid Bates.  Bell wanted more guaranteed money that would cause issues next season.

Lou was given a 1st Round safety with excellent athleticism.
A Super Bowl starting vet, who has played like shit.
A 3rd round safety from a national power.

He needs to work with what he has if he is to live up to his reputation.  If he needs a bunch of stellar players then he isnt a great DC.

Great post. Lou has a ton of good players, we shouldn't be this bad with what he has to work with.

Lou has had a very poor season as DC no doubt about it. Dax Hill is very talented and could be better than Bates. Battle 
took far too long to get the start over Nick Scott in my opinion, was calling for this early in the season and Lou waited far
too long to make the change. With Reader, Hubbard, BJ Hill and our LB's in Wilson and Pratt we shouldn't be near this bad
at stopping the run.

These guys are all quality vets and have played not nearly up to their standard this year against the run. Trey has never 
been a great run stopper which is why I excluded him. Lou has a lot of work to do with this Defense to get it back to where
it should be.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-23-2023, 11:42 AM)Destro Wrote: Defense does not have a player who is on a level of the QB and WR group the offense has. Who is the best player on defense? Trey? He has high impact games and others where you don't know if he got six snaps. 

Defense I see that can be fixed. Offense needs playcalling and O-line. Fixable, for sure. Will it happen? It's been the same for years, so....

I agree, but they've spent a lot of money and draft capital on the defense since 2020 for it to be this bad. The tackling is the thing that's really concerning to me. As I said though, devil's advocate and all. This year it's been a good Joe for five weeks, blanketed good JaMarr, piss poor Boyd, piss poor Irv, some bad blocking, and nonexistent Tee on offense.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-26-2023, 06:46 PM)Synric Wrote: That's what happens when you keep giving an offense chances to move the ball. Its a miracle there was only 16 points. Just wait until they keep handing the ball back over to a real offense...

(11-26-2023, 06:50 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Pittsburgh had 9 offensive drives. That’s really not that bad. This was more about the defensive being extremely poor on 3rd down and not being able to get off the field, than anything else.

Yeah, I was going to say, they were marching up and down the field from the opening drive. The offense did them no favors, but they got gashed. Early and often. They gave up big plays on 3rd and long numerous times.

[depthchart]

(11-27-2023, 03:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bates was thoroughly average many games, then he'd crank it up and just have a great came or string of games. He's paid as an elite safety.

Guys like Ed Reed had great games often.

Right

Ed Reed was a SUPER STAR. (A 5 time ALL PRO)  Hall of Fame player

[Nicomo Cosca]

JT O’Sullivan actually did a Kenny Pickett - QB School from the game against us.

This is a new low.