I'm So Damn Tired of Hearing About Women's Sports and Their Pay

[Wes Mantooth]

So today I was scrolling around the interwebs and came across an article about a WNBA game. Apparently there was some sort of clock malfunction during the game and the refs didn't handle it in the best way. That stinks, and I can see someone complaining about the mix-up.

Anyways, the article took a sharp left turn from there. One player complained that this would have never happened in a NBA game and from there the article went to exactly where you think it would in todays climate. There were references to pay and support.

This is where you lose me. You want to tell me that there's some good female athletes out there that work incredibly hard? I believe you. I know that. You want to tell me some of these sports and players mean a lot to certain people, especially young girls? I believe you. I know that. But sports that involve players getting paid (also known as professionals) are businesses. The amount of money they bring in directly contributes to the amount of money they can pay out. It's not at all different than any other product.

Yet we keep hearing that female athletes deserve more pay. That they deserve the same resources that the men do. Why? They don't make enough money to do that. In fact, a league like the WNBA is actually subsidized by the NBA. It doesn't even generate enough profit to break even. Even with their incredibly low salaries they still lose money.

I'm just not sure what people would like to happen. Where does this money come from? Why would any business pay out more than it takes in? And if this business can't or won't do that (again, why would they?) then who steps in and pays it for them? Charity organizations? The government? The tooth fairy?

It's really freaking simple. If WNBA players or the USWNT or whoever want to make more money then they need more people to support their product. The onus is them or on the consumer, not the leagues or the sports themselves.

Making all of this worse, is I can guarantee you that like 99% of people who get online and complain about this shit don't watch it either. Like, imagine complaining that a sport isn't popular enough when you yourself don't even watch said sport.

These leagues either need to figure out a way to better market their product, or more women themselves need to support it. The alternative is just accepting like a rational adult that the reason you make so little in comparison to a men's player is because a fraction of a fraction of a percent are paying for it.

PS If someone does want to bring up the USWNT that conversation is a lot more complex than the chick with the purple hair claims it is. I'm willing to go back and find the articles to support why they don't make so much more than the men.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Female athletes make less money because their respective leagues make far less money. The US Woman's Soccer team literally agreed to the deal they have, and yes, they generate less revenue than the men. I'm fine with get what you can get, but the false equivalency between the pay scale of men's and women's sports is just inane. The WNBA couldn't even exist if the NBA didn't heavily subsidize it.

[Belsnickel]

I know there is an irony in me saying this on this particular message board, but I really don't care for any professional sports, any more.

[Benton]

So not too long ago I was having lunch with a retired (but formerly nationally ranked at the college level) baseball coach. Wed hung out for an hour or so and he looks at his watch and says he's  got to go, the softball team he's been following was about to play.

For anyone who used to like baseball 30 years ago, try college softball. Its legit. It's exciting. It's a dozen times more competitive than mlb.

Women's soccer? Way more interesting than men's soccer in the us.

End of the day, competition drives sports. Some women's sports are super good to watch. Some aren't. Same with dudes. men's pro soccer in the us stinks; women's soccer is fun to watch.

WNBA is probably the opposite of how things should work. Moderately interesting version of modern basketball, which isn't very interesting compared to how it used to be played.

[hollodero]

Oh my, this is one of the more frequent debates where I usually do not align with others. The scandal that women get paid less for the same effort in sports.

I always end up saying yeah that's because usually significantly less people watch women compete in sports on a naturally lower level that is quite apparent in most instances.
Then I claim it's also unfair how soccer players get paid so much more than triathletes, even though the latter sure put a lot of work into it too; and how it's the same reason in the end, less viewers, less interest, less revenue.

Amongst the top responses I get for that is a) women's sports get watched less because sexists like me don't watch women's sports for sexist reasons or b) that I'm apparently argueing for dressing them up sexier to attract more viewers just to get paid what they are entitled to in the first place.

Those points usually don't fly with me. My peers really are too progressive for me at times.


I also remember the McEnroe scandal, where he claimed Serena is the best female tennis player of all times and got berated for not saying "the best player of all times" and pointing out he did not do so because she would not compete on a top 100 level with the men. Bad McEnroe, saying what is apparently true.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-16-2021, 03:39 AM)hollodero Wrote: I also remember the McEnroe scandal, where he claimed Serena is the best female tennis player of all times and got berated for not saying "the best player of all times" and pointing out he did not do so because she would not compete on a top 100 level with the men. Bad McEnroe, saying what is apparently true.

So apparently both the Williams sisters lost to a male tennis players years ago.  I believe the guy was ranked around 200th in the world.  He played them back to back and beat them handily.  Making it even worse is that he suppsosedly didn't even warm up and either had been drinking before the matches, or was drinking in between sets.

I'm too lazy to find the story but I'm sure anyone who wants to corroborate can with a google search.  I've heard it numerous times. 

There's another story floating around about the USWNT getting smoked by a boys U15 (15 and under team) too.  I wanna say they lost by like 5 goals or something.

Fwiw, I'm not pointing this out to just rag on female sports but your post about McEnroe reminded of these stories.

[hollodero]

(05-16-2021, 10:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So apparently both the Williams sisters lost to a male tennis players years ago.  I believe the guy was ranked around 200th in the world.  He played them back to back and beat them handily.  Making it even worse is that he suppsosedly didn't even warm up and either had been drinking before the matches, or was drinking in between sets.

I'm too lazy to find the story but I'm sure anyone who wants to corroborate can with a google search. I've heard it numerous times.

He also was a chain smoker and I guess smoked during the game. The Williams sisters had claimed they could beat someone around 200 before. In their defense, they were still teenagers and teenagers say the darndest things. He was #203 and trending down sharply, still he had zero doubt that it's not even a competition; did not even use his serve. Name's Karsten Braasch.

(05-16-2021, 10:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: There's another story floating around about the USWNT getting smoked by a boys U15 (15 and under team) too.  I wanna say they lost by like 5 goals or something.

I know something akin to that happened in Australia, women's national team losing against a U15 squad 0-7. The amount of useless things I can remember while also forgetting everything important is amazing.
In soccer, there are quite some of those stories. Women don't stand a chance. No ragging involved, just truthtelling.

[CJD]

A lot of society don't care at all about women's sports. They even go so far as to say they shouldn't even exist if they can't financially support themselves. If there is no interest in watching it, it shouldn't be regarded the same as the Men's sports.

I think it's a complicated topic because a lot of sports start out as scholarship opportunities. The way our college system is set up, a ton of people cannot afford to even go to college in this country without learning something that is worthy of scholarship. In a lot of cases, it is academic scholarships, which makes sense. If you are good at school, come here to learn more and we'll pay for your education.

But not every person is going to be a 4.0 student and that shouldn't disqualify them from being able to go to college if they can't otherwise afford it.

I think that's where sports scholarships come into play. Whether it's more mainstream things like football or basketball or if it's your mid tier like track and field all the way down to the obscure stuff like rowing, these scholarships were meant to be a service to people who learned a sport so well they can compete on the national stage with their peers and scholarships reward them for their effort.

Now, obviously, a lot of what makes scholarships lucrative for schools is the revenue from people's interests in such sports. the NCAA makes a ton of money every year in many sports, but I think the education opportunities are important as well.

So eliminating, curtailing or otherwise downsizing women's sports will do nothing but limit the education opportunities for young women compared to young men.

And that's where things get complicated when it comes to men and women's sports. It's clear people are generally more interested in male sports than female sports. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that women weren't even expected (or in some cases, allowed) to get an education until the last 100 years or so. So men's sports were already well established before women's sports even got off the ground. So the question then becomes, do we allow this systemic inequality to remain just because it always has?

It's definitely the easier option. Just let women's sports die in the cruelty of the free market. It would definitely happen. But I think that does a disservice to all the young women who want to play sports for a living as they see boys do, but they simply cannot because it would not be a feasible career option. Without some form of professional sports for women, no women will pursue it which will then make the professional sport be guaranteed to never exist.

It becomes a self perpetuating cycle. Pay raises are one of the ways to increase the chances that women's sports will eventually become self sustaining.

As an aside, I do find it somewhat interesting that a lot of people don't tend to give a single shit about women's sports, even going so far as to say they aren't even necessary unless they're independently viable on an economic level, but the second that a trans woman wants to play, we must "defend the sanctity and fairness" of women's sports...or whatever their argument is.

[BigPapaKain]

I mean they're getting paid to play a damn game. At the end of the day, they're being paid to do things folks do in their backyards or down at the park. And they're still making more than most of us.

My bleeding liberal heart doesn't exactly break for professional athletes.

[SunsetBengal]

Let's look at where this all began, Title IX. Prior to T9, many colleges were cancelling a vast amount of sports programs, because they weren't generating enough money to be self sufficient from the college budget. Title IX declared that all colleges could collectively use the revenue pool to fund all sports the college chose to offer.

In reality, a ton of athletes can thank NCAA Football and Men's Basketball for funding their scholarships and educational journeys.

The question should be, "Why was Title IX necessary in the first place"? Well, some, actually many sports only appeal to niche audiences. Therefore they don't draw enough eyeballs to merit television coverage, as there will be nowhere near enough revenue generated from advertising sales to support spending the money to air those events. So, Title IX resolved the issue by allowing kids in college to earn scholarships playing the sports they love, despite the lack of ability to earn enough money to support themselves as programs.

Then, we step to the professional sports arena. Big league sports are huge revenue generators, have been forever. They draw massive in stadium crowds, willing to pay reasonable sums to watch these events in person. They are so popular that media sees that they can make money from offering those events on television and radio, etc. Everyone involved makes money. Now, in present times, lesser sports that don't draw enormous crowds, don't generate a fraction of the viewing audience, or merit even a small fraction of the advertising revenue required to fund the coverage are suddenly demanding equality in salary?? What?? To quote former Bengals HC Marvin Lewis, "Run on your own gas"..

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(05-16-2021, 10:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So apparently both the Williams sisters lost to a male tennis players years ago.  I believe the guy was ranked around 200th in the world.  He played them back to back and beat them handily.  Making it even worse is that he suppsosedly didn't even warm up and either had been drinking before the matches, or was drinking in between sets.

I'm too lazy to find the story but I'm sure anyone who wants to corroborate can with a google search.  I've heard it numerous times. 

There's another story floating around about the USWNT getting smoked by a boys U15 (15 and under team) too.  I wanna say they lost by like 5 goals or something.

Fwiw, I'm not pointing this out to just rag on female sports but your post about McEnroe reminded of these stories.

I hope Venus and Serena make lots of money. Women tennis is probably about the only female sport that’s fun to watch.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-16-2021, 12:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think that's where sports scholarships come into play. Whether it's more mainstream things like football or basketball or if it's your mid tier like track and field all the way down to the obscure stuff like rowing, these scholarships were meant to be a service to people who learned a sport so well they can compete on the national stage with their peers and scholarships reward them for their effort.

I did crew in High School (not particularly great at it, but I enjoyed it). If you were a woman who rowed in HS, you didn't even need to be particularly great at it to get a scholarship somewhere. Pretty much just needed to have experience and show interest in doing it in college. It was pretty shocking. This was well over a decade ago, so maybe it's changed now, but that's how it was then.

It's also why I was really confused when I saw that some rich lady paid $500k for her daughter to get in a school on a rowing scholarship when she didn't row. Unless she was absolutely worthless athletically, she probably could have gotten that scholarship with just a tiny bit of effort.

[*jason*]

(05-17-2021, 12:53 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I hope Venus and Serena make lots of money. Women tennis is probably about the only female sport that’s fun to watch.

I'm a women's beach volleyball man myself...

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(05-24-2021, 09:22 PM)jason Wrote: I'm a women's beach volleyball man myself...

I would like to amend my statement to only include Serena and Venus matches are fun to watch*

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-17-2021, 12:53 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I hope Venus and Serena make lots of money. Women tennis is probably about the only female sport that’s fun to watch.

Sure they don't make a ton of money, but I'll watch those any day (ESPECIALLY curling).

[*jason*]

(05-24-2021, 10:03 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote:







Sure they don't make a ton of money, but I'll watch those any day (ESPECIALLY curling).

Was that last one spitting out her broken falsies??? That was badass...

Also... I feel like we have no equivalent for curling that our brothers and sisters up north enjoy.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-24-2021, 11:08 PM)jason Wrote: Was that last one spitting out her broken falsies??? That was badass...

Also... I feel like we have no equivalent for curling that our brothers and sisters up north enjoy.

You guys curl too! The Americans have gotten much better than they used to be, the past few years :)

Men's curling, they all have the right strategies, they all make the shots and they all play out of their minds; it makes things a bit too predictable and, not boring, but nothing special.

The women on the other hand.. well! They are not the greatest on strategy, they curl all over the map (lol literally; teams can have their leads curl at 95% and their skips at 55%) and it's just more-entertaining to watch in general.

And trust me, women's sports not being well-financed? These chicks have never seen how packed the crowds are for a Scotties, here in Canada

The last gif is women's rugby; I'll watch any gender of rugby, probably the sport I was best at, in High School.

[Beaker]

(05-16-2021, 12:14 AM)Benton Wrote: Women's soccer? Way more interesting than men's soccer in the us.

I disagree. Women's soccer is really bad. Even the USWNT is bad soccer compared to mens. Its slow, its uneven, the goalies are really bad...they cant get near shots mens goalies easily save, etc. The only thing fun about womens soccer is the USWNT wins....and there are some cute girls to watch. It is a serious downgrade from the mens game.

[Benton]

(05-26-2021, 11:11 PM)Beaker Wrote: I disagree. Women's soccer is really bad. Even the USWNT is bad soccer compared to mens. Its slow, its uneven, the goalies are really bad...they cant get near shots mens goalies easily save, etc. The only thing fun about womens soccer is the USWNT wins....and there are some cute girls to watch. It is a serious downgrade from the mens game.

Wait.

Are you comparing the national women's team to the men's, or the national women's team to teams like Barca or Liverpool? 

Because if it's to the national men's team, I completely disagree. They play faster and more aggressive and flop a lot less. If it's to men's teams from England, Spain, etc, then that's completely different.