(10-21-2015, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So all the guys who were critical can now claim that they always considered his good play a "possibility" the real question nis how many people were in favor of his contract extension. That will show how people really felt about him.
I've been considered very critical of Andy, but I think his contract was one of the smartest things the Bengals FO has done in a long time. Let's be honest, even for an "average quarterback" as most of us had him labeled, having him retained for cap hits under $10 million per year for the first couple of years is excellent financially. You don't see any QBs with long term extensions with that type of cap relief unless the numbers skyrocket later in the deal. Andy's deal doesn't even hit $20 million in any of the years unless he reaches the Super Bowl, then he would be at almost exactly $20 million in the year 2020. What a great deal that is. Other than 2020, none of the other years can even hit $20 million even if he hits every escalator.
The only thing I was ever worried about was that even if Andy played poorly, I didn't think the organization would have cut him even with the "outs" the contract has (after 2015/2016 or later of course, I didn't call for him to be cut last offseason). That was my only concern, but with the way the kid is playing, it doesn't look like I have to worry about that now!
(10-21-2015, 12:51 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 2.) I was wrong about Andy Dalton.
I always thought that Andy was, at best, average. I thought he was slightly below average as far as skill set, slightly elevated by experience, intelligence, his weapons, and sheer passing volume. Translation = I just didn't think he was that good. Give him great weapons and he could be average or slightly above. Give average or below and he would give you equal results. I never saw is ceiling above being in the 12-15 range. And after last year I thought he belonged in the 17-22 range of QB's. Not true, as we're seeing now.
While I still don't think he's an elite QB, he certainly is playing elite. And my opinion is now that he truly deserves to be considered average at worst, but more than likely above average. My opinion went from average at best to average at worst. And I now do believe he deserves discussion in the Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, level QB's. I'm not saying he's better or worse than any of them, only that IMHO he currently deserved to mentioned in that tier of QB. And that could change, but right now I think Andy is a probably a legitimate 6-10 range QB from a talent standpoint. A 6-10 range QB who is actually producing at a top 3 level.
He's earned his contract moving forward. I was one of a few who hated the deal. I couldn't have hated it more. I hated the urgency, I hated the risk. And you know what? I was wrong. I'll say it again: I was wrong. I even underlined it for you. They made the right move. Hindsight is 20-20, and it's now telling me that they got themselves a nice deal, and their urgency, coupled with frontloading, was a very good decision.
Now, I'm not saying he can't regress. Nor am I saying that I think he becomes a great postseason QB (he could though, I don't know). All I'm really saying is that my ceiling and floor levels for him have completely changed. And no one play can affect this team or inspire confidence more than the QB. For that reason, Andy Dalton's improvement over previous year has allowed me to change my mind about this team's chances more than anything else. If he continues to play in that top 10 level of QB then that, more than anything else, is why this year has a good chance to be different.
Props for you for being man enough to admit you had Dalton wrong. I see him as top 3 of the "next generation" of QBs, with Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, and himself.
That group will not be able to be compared to the Mannings, Brees, Rogers, and Bradys of the world until they get a few more years under their belt.
One other thing about Dalton. You may think he isn't the #1 QB of the "up and comers", but when you factor in their salaries I think he will end up being the best value of them all and it isn't really even close.
(10-21-2015, 01:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am on record as someone who saw AD's potential. I did say I thought those who felt he had peaked were wrong. I felt he could be a franchise QB and was closer to one last year than a lot of others.
But, I can see why some would question if he could overcome the inconsistencies? Just because I thought he could and would did not make me lose respect who disagreed with my opinion.
But opinions are what make this site worthwhile and create great discussions. My wish is we just don't take the discussions to personal attacks to other members or to our coaches or players. Everyone is passionate and wants the team to win, we have all made mistakes, I hope moving forward we learn from the personal attacks as they are counter productive to great conversation.
No more Mediocre Marv and His Merry Band of Tenured Bums?
(10-21-2015, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lot's of back and forth here about what people said in the past.
People critical of Dalton trying to step back on their claims. Or trying to say their criticism was all justified.
People who supported Dalton trying to claim they never had any doubt.
I say lets just look at who thought the contract extension was a good idea. I'd say that at least 50% of the members of the old board were against it. It still may be too early to decide, but soi far it is looking like a good decision.
And for the record I ranked Dalton as part of a group of about 10 QBs that you could shuffle up in any order between 10 and 20. And I always felt that when you had a QB of that quality you paid to keep him unless you had a better proven replacement. Too many people were claiming that it would be easy to get a better QB. The fact is it is not easy at all because other teams lock these guys up to long term contracts when they get one.
So all the guys who were critical can now claim that they always considered his good play a "possibility" the real question nis how many people were in favor of his contract extension. That will show how people really felt about him.
100% agreed....rep
I thought the contract was good....for the reasons you stated, AND we had an out if he totally shit the bed. However, I WAS also on board for drafting Bridgewater going into those contract talks.
.....oh....and....uh.....shouldn't this derailed thread now be considered an Andy Dalton thread, and henceforth be part of the all-encompassing Andy Dalton mega thread?
(10-21-2015, 04:11 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....oh....and....uh.....shouldn't this derailed thread now be considered an Andy Dalton thread, and henceforth be part of the all-encompassing Andy Dalton mega thread?
(10-21-2015, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lot's of back and forth here about what people said in the past.
People critical of Dalton trying to step back on their claims. Or trying to say their criticism was all justified.
People who supported Dalton trying to claim they never had any doubt.
I say lets just look at who thought the contract extension was a good idea. I'd say that at least 50% of the members of the old board were against it. It still may be too early to decide, but soi far it is looking like a good decision.
And for the record I ranked Dalton as part of a group of about 10 QBs that you could shuffle up in any order between 10 and 20. And I always felt that when you had a QB of that quality you paid to keep him unless you had a better proven replacement. Too many people were claiming that it would be easy to get a better QB. The fact is it is not easy at all because other teams lock these guys up to long term contracts when they get one.
So all the guys who were critical can now claim that they always considered his good play a "possibility" the real question nis how many people were in favor of his contract extension. That will show how people really felt about him.
I was against the deal, until I learned about the escalators, and that if Andy didn't improve they could cut bait with a minimal cap hit. That being said, Andy Dalton is worth every penny he is earning right now. I've always had high hopes for Dalton, but I've been objective when analysing him, at least I think so. Prior to this year I thought he was average/mediocre. He wouldn't lose a game, but he could do just enough to win one. This year he's playing at an elite level and I couldn't be happier, I hope this is the true Dalton and not the guy we've seen in the past 4 years, that Dalton gave Flacco a run for his money as the most consistently inconsistent QB in the NFL.
(10-21-2015, 04:22 PM)Bryan Wrote: I was against the deal, until I learned about the escalators, and that if Andy didn't improve they could cut bait with a minimal cap hit. That being said, Andy Dalton is worth every penny he is earning right now. I've always had high hopes for Dalton, but I've been objective when analysing him, at least I think so. Prior to this year I thought he was average/mediocre. He wouldn't lose a game, but he could do just enough to win one. This year he's playing at an elite level and I couldn't be happier, I hope this is the true Dalton and not the guy we've seen in the past 4 years, that Dalton gave Flacco a run for his money as the most consistently inconsistent QB in the NFL.
Just an FYI, Flacco cap hit is 28 million in 2016 and 32 million in 2017 or about 50% of AD's cap hits
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
I was completely against the deal mostly due to timing (as were many others on the old forum). Keep in mind he signed the extension before the bad season he had last year. You could have signed the guy this past off season for much less so in the end the people that were against the contract would have actually turned out to be right.
(10-21-2015, 03:38 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I've been considered very critical of Andy, but I think his contract was one of the smartest things the Bengals FO has done in a long time. Let's be honest, even for an "average quarterback" as most of us had him labeled, having him retained for cap hits under $10 million per year for the first couple of years is excellent financially. You don't see any QBs with long term extensions with that type of cap relief unless the numbers skyrocket later in the deal. Andy's deal doesn't even hit $20 million in any of the years unless he reaches the Super Bowl, then he would be at almost exactly $20 million in the year 2020. What a great deal that is. Other than 2020, none of the other years can even hit $20 million even if he hits every escalator.
The only thing I was ever worried about was that even if Andy played poorly, I didn't think the organization would have cut him even with the "outs" the contract has (after 2015/2016 or later of course, I didn't call for him to be cut last offseason). That was my only concern, but with the way the kid is playing, it doesn't look like I have to worry about that now!
The only touch and go thing will be is that if Andy continues this tear and it is indeed the new(next step) Dalton then the team has to rework that deal.
Andy seems to be one of the biggest team awww shucks guys ever but if ANYONE on this planet thinks being the 20th top paid QB in the league would work for him is nuts.
I fully expect the Bengals to rework the deal if it comes to it and give Andy what he is worth while still keeping all cap issues under control.
IMO, some people (like you) throw out the word "elite" too casually. You need some sort of sustained success to be considered elite. I can't fathom using the e-word on a guy without him playing even ONE full season at this level.
I have no problem with anyone saying that he's performing at an elite level, because he is. Calling him "elite" at this point is insanity. Give it some more time and you'll have a case for that.
Honestly, I agree with you, but I think it's funny that Dalton has been judged SO much for 4 (playoff) games, yet people think it's insanity to judge him on 6 games. I get that playoff games are more important...but still.
(10-21-2015, 12:13 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Actually, they do. Guys like Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees... they have all had multiple years that they are well over 100 rating. I am not detracting from what Dalton has done this year, I have readily said he is playing great. Just saying that six games does not put him into the top tier of quarterbacks.
No, they really don't. Dalton currently sports a 116.8 rating. How many QB's have finished a season with a rating THAT high or better? It doesn't happen often. I at least expect some regression. Dalton is playing at a level that very few QB's have been able to sustain over the course of 16 games.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(10-21-2015, 07:51 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: The only touch and go thing will be is that if Andy continues this tear and it is indeed the new(next step) Dalton then the team has to rework that deal.
Andy seems to be one of the biggest team awww shucks guys ever but if ANYONE on this planet thinks being the 20th top paid QB in the league would work for him is nuts.
I fully expect the Bengals to rework the deal if it comes to it and give Andy what he is worth while still keeping all cap issues under control.
Dalton gets a nice pay increase of he wins in the playoffs or even gets a first round bye. I doubt they will rework his contract.
Honestly, I have trouble believing anyone who says they saw this coming. I predicted Dalton would have a 90+ rating this year. Mostly based on his previous progression and the fact that he was missing so many key guys last year. That said, his progression was modest and there was no evidence to suggest he'd take such a massive leap forward. Sure, I can see people thinking he'd be really good this year...but an MVP candidate? Please.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(10-21-2015, 08:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Honestly, I have trouble believing anyone who says they saw this coming. I predicted Dalton would have a 90+ rating this year. Mostly based on his previous progression and the fact that he was missing so many key guys last year. That said, his progression was modest and there was no evidence to suggest he'd take such a massive leap forward. Sure, I can see people thinking he'd be really good this year...but an MVP candidate? Please.
I thought that he would play this way. Once you realize he was playing with inexperienced receivers in 2013 and produced the numbers he did I think you would see improvement the following year but.... everyone got hurt in 2014 and you couldn't see his improvement on his stat sheet but if you really look at how he was playing you could see that he was still improving. The biggest thing that is helping him this year more than in the past is his pocket presence. It's something most QBs have to learn with experience and I think Dalton has finally started get that aspect of the game.
Right on to Toast. I know you used to get a lot of hate for being critical of the team from the old boards.
I pretty much agree with most of what you point out.
Especially about Marvin's in-game decisions still being questionable, and improvement of FA to fill in the gaps.
The problem is when you mention areas of needed improvement and it's taken to the extreme.
I attribute it to lack of reading comprehension or just extreme homerism.
Never have you stated that this franchise needs to break bank and build through free agency. Only to spend some to address gaps.
Good to see you here on these boards and posting.
You didn't have to make this thread(you just knew you'd get some backlash)but I understand that you're happy about what's going on with the Bengals as of late.
They are your team as much as anyone else on here so enjoy the ride man.
Maybe you were slightly underrating Dalton based on his play the first four years. I had him at slightly above average and I still don't see that was been off base given his play up to the off season and the weapons he's had to work with.
No one saw the New Dalton coming really. The game has slowed down for him and it's no longer too much for him.
This team is good. I'd say as good as I've seen since 1988.
It's a long season and there's lots of football left. It is possible that this team is as good as the 1988 team or even better. But we'll have to let the season play out to find out if they are.
My take on Marvin Lewis is that he's been slowly changing how the team is run and has finally gotten things running the way he wanted them to run to start with. This is no small task given Mike Brown's absolute rock like aversion to even the slightest change.
(10-21-2015, 12:51 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: While I still don't think he's an elite QB, he certainly is playing elite.
I hear this a lot around here. Seriously, what does it mean? Does it mean he's playing elite right now but you don't believe he will continue playing like this? Or does it mean even if he's playing elite for a long time, you don't say elite until after such and such time, which means he is still elite before you're willing to call him that if he does indeed play at that level for x period of time? Or is there something else meant by this? I don't get it and I'm just trying to understand.
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