Impeachment Hearings

[GMDino]

(12-02-2019, 07:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So in you opinion Zelenski is lying? 

(12-02-2019, 07:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: I'd assume so, yes.

(Or in the particular case you quoted, he is mincing words... but in general, yes he's lying, because he has no other option)

Or Trump is lying misleading his minions...again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/us/politics/trump-zelensky-fact-check.html

Quote:

• Dec. 2, 2019, 3:10 p.m. ET
  

WHAT WAS SAID
“Breaking News: The President of Ukraine has just again announced that President Trump has done nothing wrong with respect to Ukraine and our interactions or calls. If the Radical Left Democrats were sane, which they are not, it would be case over!”
— President Trump, in a tweet on Monday morning


“The Ukrainian president came out and said very strongly that President Trump did absolutely nothing wrong. That should be case over.”
— Mr. Trump in remarks to reporters on Monday morning


This is misleading. Mr. Trump was most likely referring to — and distorting — comments President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine made in an interview with Time magazine and other publications published early Monday morning. Nowhere in the interview did Mr. Zelensky say that his American counterpart did “nothing wrong.” In fact, he criticized Mr. Trump’s comments about corruption in Ukraine and his decision to suspend military aid to Kyiv.

Though he said there had been no discussion of a quid pro quo in their conversations, Mr. Zelensky questioned the United States’ decision to freeze the aid, which he said was a matter of “fairness.”



“Look, I never talked to the president from the position of a quid pro quo. That’s not my thing,” Mr. Zelensky said. “I don’t want us to look like beggars. But you have to understand: We’re at war. If you’re our strategic partner, then you can’t go blocking anything for us. I think that’s just about fairness. It’s not about a quid pro quo. It just goes without saying.”

Mr. Zelensky also pushed back on Mr. Trump’s repeated characterization of Ukraine as hopelessly corrupt, noting that such a narrative undermines international support for the country.





“When America says, for instance, that Ukraine is a corrupt country, that is the hardest of signals,” Mr. Zelensky said. “Everyone hears that signal. Investments, banks, stakeholders, companies, American, European, companies that have international capital in Ukraine — it’s a signal to them that says, ‘Be careful, don’t invest.’ Or, ‘Get out of there.’ This is a hard signal.”

Since the White House released a reconstructed transcript of the July 25 phone call between the two presidents, Mr. Zelensky has repeatedly denied that he felt pressured by Mr. Trump and has repeatedly stated his unwillingness to get involved in American politics.


“I was never pressured, and there were no conditions being imposed,” he said in October to Kyodo, a Japanese news service, adding that “Ukraine must not be embroiled in scandals connected with the presidential election.”

[jj22]

Barr is "attacking" his report that denies and ends all the conspiracy theories that Trump and Fox has pushed and cleared the FBI, Obama, and everyone supposedly out to get Trump.

The backlash is hilarious if you are following on social media.

[GMDino]

(12-03-2019, 10:50 AM)jj22 Wrote: Barr is "attacking" his report that denies and ends all the conspiracy theories that Trump and Fox has pushed and cleared the FBI, Obama, and everyone supposedly out to get Trump.

The backlash is hilarious if you are following on social media.

The conspiracy theory is that the report was leaked to get ahead of Barr spinning it like he did the Mueller report.

[Belsnickel]

(12-03-2019, 10:50 AM)jj22 Wrote: Barr is "attacking" his report that denies and ends all the conspiracy theories that Trump and Fox has pushed and cleared the FBI, Obama, and everyone supposedly out to get Trump.

The backlash is hilarious if you are following on social media.

Well, this isn't his report. His report is the one he has Durham working on. Horowitz took it upon himself, as IG, to look into the accusations of wrongdoing.

Remember when everyone was up in arms about Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch meeting on the tarmac? Those were the days.

[GMDino]

A reporter needs to make Trump identify the legal scholars who reviewed the transcripts (plural!) & said they were “absolutely perfect.” Then those scholars should be interviewed. But I feel certain they don’t exist. https://t.co/Un0BOuhqB3

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) December 3, 2019

[GMDino]

Looks like ⁦@DevinNunes⁩ was on a lot of calls with a future accused felon. pic.twitter.com/lSGMGPt6PY

— Greg Miller (@gregpmiller) December 3, 2019

 

[*bfine32*]

(12-03-2019, 12:32 AM)GMDino Wrote: Or Trump is lying misleading his minions...again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/us/politics/trump-zelensky-fact-check.html

Hollo was forthright enough to give an answer to the question posed; are you?  

[GMDino]

(12-04-2019, 12:24 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Hollo was forthright enough to give an answer to the question posed; are you?  

I shared the rest of the report...not just a misleading line parroted by Trump supporters.

The answer is clear: Trump was putting pressure on the Ukraine to announce an investigation into the Bidens and until he got that he was withholding the funds.

Zelinski said he wasn't going to do a quid pro quo and the president should never have asked for it given the relationship between the two countries.

But in bfine terms (to answer the question): No.  Zelinski is not lying...Trump is.

[GMDino]

When was the last time you had a nearly 10 minute phone conversation with a person who months later was indicted for crimes directly related to your work, but then you can’t remember the call? Because that’s what @DevinNunes wants you to buy. https://t.co/36t7BYYfHc

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) December 4, 2019

 


I worried about all these gop members with such awful memories. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-04-2019, 12:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: But in bfine terms (to answer the question): No.  Zelinski is not lying...Trump is.

Aaahh, I appreciate the straight forward answer. So Z felt no pressure to comply. It appears you and Hollo view it differently. 

[GMDino]

(12-04-2019, 12:32 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Aaahh, I appreciate the straight forward answer. So Z felt no pressure to comply. It appears you and Hollo view it differently. 

I'd appreciate it if you could read without the orange colored glasses but you can lead a horse to water and all that....

[JustWinBaby]

I don't know if I said it here, but Trump stood in front of the helicopter and called for corrupt nations to investigate a US citizen.

If that's not an impeachable offense (I think it clearly is), then the horse trading is irrelevant. I'm guessing the whole dog-and-pony show is because it's NOT an impeachable offense, at least not politically [puke]. And instead of fixing that (which it's not clear they need to fix), Dems are staging a series of grandstanding events.

They all suck. Blows my mind how a third party doesn't take advantage of this. But I suppose the problem is the media is a firewall against a 3rd party.

[JustWinBaby]

(12-03-2019, 11:45 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, this isn't his report. His report is the one he has Durham working on. Horowitz took it upon himself, as IG, to look into the accusations of wrongdoing.

Remember when everyone was up in arms about Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch meeting on the tarmac? Those were the days.

They're threading the needle to restore confidence in the DOJ.  People who pushed the boundaries of the "gray area" with good intentions - I'm not being sarcastic I think that was the case.

Although it is interesting, given what a rubber stamp the FISA court is, that there were potential abuses.  That's the whole 911 "W" legacy.  I think what may be shocking to people is that no laws were actually broken.  Yep, we suspended due process in the event of terrorism, and establishing a terrorism link is a really, really really low bar.

[Belsnickel]

(12-04-2019, 07:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: They're threading the needle to restore confidence in the DOJ.  People who pushed the boundaries of the "gray area" with good intentions - I'm not being sarcastic I think that was the case.

Although it is interesting, given what a rubber stamp the FISA court is, that there were potential abuses.  That's the whole 911 "W" legacy.  I think what may be shocking to people is that no laws were actually broken.  Yep, we suspended due process in the event of terrorism, and establishing a terrorism link is a really, really really low bar.

I don't know about restoring confidence in the DOJ. If anything, some of the actions occurring right now lessen confidence in the DOJ because of the increased politicization of the agency. I do agree with the second part of the post, though. The mechanisms in place post-9/11 create many situations in which we, the people, have forfeited civil liberties in the effort to fight terrorism. Whether those benefits outweigh the costs is going to be something each person will have to weigh on their own terms.

[JustWinBaby]

(12-04-2019, 09:10 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't know about restoring confidence in the DOJ.

Fair enough.  Let's just say for 40% of the population that always votes Repub....trust in the DOJ was badly shaken.

And as an independent, the whole thing smelled to me - I believe there were abuses, perhaps mostly benign intentions but abuses nonetheless.  I think you agree with me in that regard.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actions ocurring right now".  I think Barr is a straight shooter, and he's digging into whether the abuses were actually benign.  Predictably the propaganda machine is trying to discredit him.  So much effort before the report even comes out....


Trump is a complete ass.  But he unintentionally exposes a lot of faults with DC.  There IS a deep state.  At this point, it's beyond clear DC is run, at least in part, by career staffers...and they don't believe they need to accept the results of an election.  It's really no longer debatable - we just saw two weeks of hearings where Trump's biggest offense was mucking up years of established foreign policy.  And that is supposedly the POTUS prerogative, but only if you're naive.

[Belsnickel]

(12-04-2019, 09:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Fair enough.  Let's just say for 40% of the population that always votes Repub....trust in the DOJ was badly shaken.

Which is odd considering the role they played in helping Trump win.

(12-04-2019, 09:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And as an independent, the whole thing smelled to me - I believe there were abuses, perhaps mostly benign intentions but abuses nonetheless.  I think you agree with me in that regard.

For the most part.

(12-04-2019, 09:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "actions ocurring right now".  I think Barr is a straight shooter, and he's digging into whether the abuses were actually benign.  Predictably the propaganda machine is trying to discredit him.  So much effort before the report even comes out....

Barr often acts as the president's lawyer, but he is the lawyer of the people. There has long been an independence of the DoJ from partisan matters but Barr has delved into them. As a systems guy, as someone who appreciates the structures and policies in place to protect us and our democracy, this is a concerning development.

(12-04-2019, 09:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Trump is a complete ass.  But he unintentionally exposes a lot of faults with DC.  There IS a deep state.  At this point, it's beyond clear DC is run, at least in part, by career staffers...and they don't believe they need to accept the results of an election.  It's really no longer debatable - we just saw two weeks of hearings where Trump's biggest offense was mucking up years of established foreign policy.  And that is supposedly the POTUS prerogative, but only if you're naive.

I'd disagree. We saw two weeks of hearing showing career staffers expressed concern over what they saw as a president putting his personal and political interests above those of public concern. What was discussed goes beyond a policy disagreement. They aren't talking in the hearings about Trump and his friendliness with authoritarian world leaders or to leaders of countries with his business interests. It is specifically about using his authority as president to benefit himself in a political manner, which is an abuse of power. Also, the proper process is being carried out that. An abuse of power was seen, it was reported, and Congressional oversight is in process. We haven't seen any evidence of these bureaucrats working against POTUS in ways outside of their authority in these hearings.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-04-2019, 07:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: They're threading the needle to restore confidence in the DOJ.  People who pushed the boundaries of the "gray area" with good intentions - I'm not being sarcastic I think that was the case.

Although it is interesting, given what a rubber stamp the FISA court is, that there were potential abuses.  That's the whole 911 "W" legacy.  I think what may be shocking to people is that no laws were actually broken.  Yep, we suspended due process in the event of terrorism, and establishing a terrorism link is a really, really really low bar.

Yes, the Attorney General disagreeing with his own DOJ IG is all about restoring confidence in the DOJ.

LOL

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-04-2019, 07:27 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I don't know if I said it here, but Trump stood in front of the helicopter and called for corrupt nations to investigate a US citizen.

If that's not an impeachable offense (I think it clearly is), then the horse trading is irrelevant. I'm guessing the whole dog-and-pony show is because it's NOT an impeachable offense, at least not politically [puke]. And instead of fixing that (which it's not clear they need to fix), Dems are staging a series of grandstanding events.

They all suck. Blows my mind how a third party doesn't take advantage of this. But I suppose the problem is the media is a firewall against a 3rd party.

How does the media prevent you and other “independents” from forming a third party?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-04-2019, 09:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Fair enough.  Let's just say for 40% of the population that always votes Repub....trust in the DOJ was badly shaken.

And as an independent, the whole thing smelled to me - I believe there were abuses, perhaps mostly benign intentions but abuses nonetheless.  I think you agree with me in that regard.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actions ocurring right now".  I think Barr is a straight shooter, and he's digging into whether the abuses were actually benign.  Predictably the propaganda machine is trying to discredit him.  So much effort before the report even comes out....


Trump is a complete ass.  But he unintentionally exposes a lot of faults with DC.  There IS a deep state.  At this point, it's beyond clear DC is run, at least in part, by career staffers...and they don't believe they need to accept the results of an election.  It's really no longer debatable - we just saw two weeks of hearings where Trump's biggest offense was mucking up years of established foreign policy.  And that is supposedly the POTUS prerogative, but only if you're naive.

If that is your takeaway then you clearly weren’t paying attention.

[GMDino]

Well the gop is doing their best to stop the next public hearings from even starting.

Also (I was only half paying attention when it started) was that Jim Jordan yelling again?